1. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T14:14:00 with 31 likes

    the Canadian presence at TAC has gone way too far when "Caribou" appears in a thesis title

  2. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T14:15:00 with 2 likes

    Slideshow? Wow. Getting high-tech.

  3. Christopher Michael Mercincavage at 2014-08-14T14:23:00 with 9 likes

    I don't see one decent paper on Belgian Lesbian Studies anywhere on this list! How can this be a legitimate school?

  4. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:38:00 with 16 likes

    “And They Were Both Naked … and Were Not Ashamed”: The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual Art.
    OH SNAP

  5. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:44:00 with 0 likes

    Wild how many of these are circling around political philosophy. I've wondered if this is a trend over the last decade or so. Richard Delahide Ferrier, David Quackenbush, Brian Dragoo - do you think there are more or less students writing on political philosophy topics these days than in the past? Or has it remained roughly constant?

  6. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T14:48:00 with 2 likes

    Escalante: The next step will be a thesis on usury and the Loonie.

  7. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 0 likes

    A surprising number of theological interests: even something on evangelization. I'd say the students are taking over.

  8. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 7 likes

    I think if Tim Horton's and the Toonie make an appearance in a thesis title, it will be time for a scouring of the shire.

  9. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T14:51:00 with 3 likes

    There are always at least that number of theological interests in play, Peregrine Bonaventure. Just like there are is an absurdly high percentage of grads who go into the religious life.

  10. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T14:53:00 with 0 likes

    Really, do you have a graph? Also, TAC almost comes close to studying the volume of St. Thomas' work as Christendom theology students, not to mention... Ah, congratulations. TAC is wonderful.

  11. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T14:57:00 with 3 likes

    Sometimes quality is more important than volume
    I always like seeing the "trends" of the thesis titles for each class. You can always tell which topics caused the most after class thought

  12. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:00:00 with 7 likes

    I said "required" in the status, but I'm not even sure that I need to.
    There may be theology majors in a precious few non-religious institutions who read as much St. Thomas, but we'd still be up there. As to Aristotle, however - I'd be willing to bet that almost no major anywhere reads as much Aristotle, and as slowly.

  13. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T15:01:00 with 9 likes

    ^and painfully^

  14. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:05:00 with 0 likes

    Christendom theology students study a greater volume of St. Thomas in the context of a greater range of the Church's Magisterium. So it is both quantity and quality. It is too bad no one at TAC is talking or writing about this yet, when some of its tutors are pushing questionable theories of evolution.

  15. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:15:00 with 0 likes

    The claim that the "requirement" to read Thomas is greater at TAC than any other college, and not even close, is false and ridiculous. Christendom theology students are required to read a greater volume in a context which is more pre-eminent in quality. This false claim is presupposed by an academic bias, and what is the point of studying St. Thomas if you ere in theological speculation because of your academic bias? But congratulations! Every college graduate deserves congratulations!

  16. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:22:00 with 2 likes

    What do you mean by in context? And I guess I should clarify my "quality" was a tease.

  17. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:23:00 with 0 likes

    http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education/syllabus
    Syllabus | Thomas Aquinas College
    www.thomasaquinas.edu
    The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of T...See More

  18. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:23:00 with 3 likes

    Those are specified Theology students not all Christendom students, which is the distinction that was being made I do believe.

  19. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:24:00 with 3 likes

    #echochamber

  20. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:26:00 with 2 likes

    Well, not when they get out of the nest. One hopes. But that's partly my job online, which is why I am regarded as a LEEBEARELLE.

  21. Drew Summitt at 2014-08-14T15:26:00 with 4 likes

    "A Link to the Past: An Investigation of the Role of History in the Understanding and Development of Political Science"
    Favorite one.

  22. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:28:00 with 8 likes

    What I love most about all the titles is how wide sweeping they are. I mean, just let that one above sink in. HAH. But this is precisely what is needed in the fractured world in which we live, at least at the start. They will never deliver on their promise in these grandiose titles but letting them try without dying the death of a thousand footnotes is good stuff.
    So long as they then get out and get particular and keep learning and realize they didn't actually solve the problem.

  23. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:30:00 with 24 likes

    "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."

  24. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:37:00 with 0 likes

    By context we mean studying St. Thomas in the context of the fullness of the deposit of the Faith, and not the other way around. This would be very good to try more of at TAC, to help some of the theological theses to not drift so far into the speculative weeds and weirdness. I repeat that Christendom theology majors are required to read more Thomas and Church theology, so the claim is silly, and only underscores the hubris of TAC.

  25. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T15:39:00 with 1 likes

    But what do you mean by in the context of the fullness of the faith? Supplementary readings, commentaries, by priests?

  26. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:42:00 with 18 likes

    "Hello-oh-oh-oh: An Examination of the Relationship Between Relaxed Admissions Standards at Small Catholic Colleges and the Desire to Count Hours of Aquinas Read During College and Then Argue About Who Has Read More."

  27. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:44:00 with 0 likes

    All true, and I complain about it all the time, but in the larger picture these places do pretty well at placing their top students. It drops off pretty quickly after that, but I think the complaints you bring up here (which I have shared for years) are a bit unfair when you zoom out.

  28. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:44:00 with 0 likes

    By fullness of the Faith, we mean the full deposit of divine revelation, as handed down by the Church, not just some of it, and out of context. We mean divine revelation, not just natural revelation, and we mean sacred theology, not just metaphysics. This is the Faith that perfects reason, and this is the only Faith that perfects reason. That you do not really understand this is telling of the kind of education you have been indoctrinated into at TAC.

  29. Thomas Hall at 2014-08-14T15:45:00 with 2 likes

    Well, that was quite a ride. I love it, the righteous ambition, the studious intent, the frequent whimsy of the topics (Ptolemy's equant, really?).

  30. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:50:00 with 1 likes

    Aaron Gigliotti: the failure to launch business is also a matter of social circles. Those who got out quickly are already out and doing. But it's hard for any real liberal arts grads to crack the nut of the world out there, and for good reason. Basically the top students at these institutions are as good as anywhere, but it drops off quickly after that.
    And let's not pretend that those who are quick to launch at other places are always happy ten years down the line, when they often come crashing back to earth.
    But our circles deserve all the ridicule you give them.

  31. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T15:52:00 with 5 likes

    I just like to knock you guys down a peg. I tease because I love.

  32. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:53:00 with 1 likes

    I love the Pasadena title above.
    So, what are you doing with all this knowledge you think you have? "I'm a janitor right now. I feel alienated from the modern world."
    $%^#%&

  33. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T15:55:00 with 9 likes

    Aaron Gigliotti's: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch" wins the satire prize thus far. More entries requested.

  34. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:56:00 with 0 likes

    I'll zoom out from your words "not even close" until I cannot see them anymore. I will pray for you, my brother in Christ.

  35. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T15:59:00 with 1 likes

    I'm still zooming...

  36. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:00:00 with 7 likes

    It's just a simple statement of fact - the place has no electives, so everyone takes the same courses, and thus they require more St. Thomas and Aristotle than everyone else. But if you want to present evidence by combing through the curriculum that theology majors somewhere else read/study the same amount of text be my guest. It's not a claim of ultimate superiority. Just a cool aspect of TAC.

  37. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:01:00 with 22 likes

    "Much Ado About Nothing: On the Disproportion Between the Promise of Alluring TAC Thesis Titles and the Often Ho-Hum 30 Page Term Papers Which Follow Them"

  38. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:12:00 with 0 likes

    I wish I could burn all the copies of my thesis, not just the one. I sent out with a very ambitious topic, but produced the most boring paper ever written.

  39. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:15:00 with 2 likes

    ^ it wasn't at all boring, just pedantic

  40. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-14T16:15:00 with 1 likes

    which is acceptable at that age

  41. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:16:00 with 0 likes

    You're too kind.

  42. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:16:00 with 0 likes

    I felt like it was a failure of nerve and a retreat into scholastic nonsense at the end. But yes, I was only 22.

  43. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T16:19:00 with 0 likes

    If I had it to do all over again, I would be solidly #TeamJamesJoyce instead of #TeamThomas.

  44. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:21:00 with 0 likes

    It's a simple false statement of hubris.

  45. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-14T16:26:00 with 8 likes

    "A Noble Lie: Just Because I Read 3500 Pages of Aristotle Doesn't Mean I Have Anything New to Say About It."

  46. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:37:00 with 0 likes

    "What I can write to get hired as a tutor because I have debt and can't get a real job."

  47. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:48:00 with 7 likes

    I think what I say in the status -- for all the serious flaws, defects, and problems of the place, which I am overly fond of speaking about -- is its trump card.
    All other aspects aside, it puts the student in direct contact with loads of St. Thomas and Aristotle. To me, that is its intellectual strength, and that for which I am especially grateful, since being in direct contact with both those two is a sine qua non for much else.

  48. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:51:00 with 22 likes

    "We wanted our students to go out and change the world. We didn't realize that the world was Santa Paula." -- Marcus Berquist

  49. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T16:51:00 with 7 likes

    Nasty remarks, even for you, Peregrin Bonaventure.

  50. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T16:52:00 with 5 likes

    But the former President of one of the St. Johns Colleges told me that he was envious of TAC grads for the way in which they were far more active in society than SJC grads. True story.

  51. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T16:58:00 with 0 likes

    To say that no other college comes close to reading Aristotle and Thomas to the extent that TAC does is simply false. There are most certainly several colleges in the USA that come close, and Christendom surpasses it in both quantity and quality. Without the guidance of the Church and its sacred theology, the metaphysical base at TAC is dangerously out of context. I am puzzled why you do not see this. It's sad that TACers have to continually talk themselves up. If the place were on track, this psychological quirk would not have to happen. At least half of what's taught there is theo-narcissism.

  52. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:00:00 with 0 likes

    "Jerkibus Maximus: how hiding your meaning behind latin helps reveal the personality of TAC."

  53. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:00:00 with 13 likes

    "'Who's that tripping over my bridge?' roared the troll."

  54. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 17 likes

    "hiding your meaning behind latin" - says "Peregrine Bonaventure."

  55. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 0 likes

    Barbarian, making false claims. Hubris.

  56. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:02:00 with 0 likes

    Arrogant alum.

  57. John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:09:00 with 9 likes

    This comment thread is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim".

  58. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:09:00 with 7 likes

    Take it back, Herreid! Nothing is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim"!

  59. John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:10:00 with 1 likes

    I didn't say "as good".

  60. John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:12:00 with 8 likes

    Time for some madrigals.

  61. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:16:00 with 2 likes

    As long as there's another tenor to cover for me, I'm good with that.

  62. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:17:00 with 0 likes

    No sacred theology. No online courses. No plexi-glass backboards.

  63. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:17:00 with 16 likes

    No shrubberies!

  64. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:28:00 with 16 likes

    I've tried to be patient with you several times, Peregrine, but it actually seems pretty ludicrous to me for you to go on about TACers talking themselves up, hiding behind language, exaggerating, and being arrogant.
    How about this for an example of caring excessively about TAC's reputation: savagely attacking TAC and most everyone associated with it on close to every FB thread I've ever seen you participate in.
    And now that I've gone and looked up just what one might mean by "theo-narcissism" I see that this use of language to talk about "at least half of what's taught there" is a fairly incredible exaggeration.
    I don't think the place is perfect. I think it has some serious difficulties, especially as it loses the leadership of its founders and attempts to continue to grow and sort itself out. Can we just relax and talk somewhat playfully and joyfully about this various and ramshackle attempt that all of us broken human beings (particularly those of us who are united by the Catholic faith, from whatever school) are making to reach our eternal savior?

  65. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:30:00 with 0 likes

    No shrubberies? Liam: are you the guy who gave the commencement address last year and didn't mention the Church?

  66. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:34:00 with 3 likes

    See, Liam, at Christendom they teach people to greet the brethren with a holy kiss...I mean, a criterion in hand and the spleen to apply it!

  67. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:34:00 with 14 likes

    haha. Nope. You're the guy who's misremembering my speech.

  68. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-14T17:37:00 with 15 likes

    Here's a tip, Peregrine. Google "liam collins commencement thomas aquinas", then do a page search on his speech for "devotion to the teaching Church". We have a winner! Looks like there is a secret conspiracy among the students to care about the Church, because we already know infallibly that the College doesn't.

  69. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:44:00 with 0 likes

    That's right, O, great apologist, he forgot to mention the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Where's the Faith?

  70. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:46:00 with 0 likes

    And let's never forget the importance of including sacred theology in a curriculum.

  71. John Herreid at 2014-08-14T17:46:00 with 14 likes

    Is this all part of some East Coast vs West Coast Thomist battle? Better stop before someone gets hurt in a drive-by dissertationing.

  72. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:47:00 with 13 likes

    Dang, never knew that one had to include every aspect of the Catholic Church in a commencement address to be considered a faithful Catholic. Liam, I don't envy you.

  73. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:48:00 with 0 likes

    And what about the Catholic Church?

  74. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:48:00 with 1 likes

    Peregrine is mistaken:
    http://www.christendom.edu/academics/reading-list.php
    Christendom College | Undergraduate Reading List
    www.christendom.edu
    ENGL 101: Literature of Western Civilization IThe IliadThe Odyssey Poetics Antig...See More

  75. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:50:00 with 21 likes

    "In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings."

  76. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:50:00 with 0 likes

    peruse the reading list, and stand firm by your claim, and the 8 most hated words in the English language

  77. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:51:00 with 1 likes

    Yes, Liam was the one who gave the commencement address last year, with but one oblique reference to "teaching" Church, and n'er a reference to Catholic, lest it offend the backers, and no reference to Christ of his Holy Mother, Mary. Not to mention the curriculum which lacks sacred theology. It's the hubris, fellas. The hubris. The wagon-circling and the un-Godly hubris.

  78. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:52:00 with 4 likes

    "let's go through the text line by line"

  79. Peter Halpin at 2014-08-14T17:52:00 with 6 likes

    At USF, I was once assigned a reading from a volume called,"Anti-Hegemonic, Post, Post Marxists Essays". So kiss it, all you Thomist zombies!!!

  80. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:54:00 with 17 likes

    I heard that at Christendom you can't receive communion unless you swear on a Bible wrapped in the Confederate flag that Abraham Lincoln was an evil man.

  81. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:54:00 with 7 likes

    I remember now Liam coming up to me cackling before giving his speech: "Hah, Chris, guess what, I'm going to purposefully not mention the word Catholic, just because I can, and I don't want to offend the backers!" I then asked who the backers were. He gave me sideways glances before darting up onto the stage. #thingsthatneverhappened

  82. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:55:00 with 13 likes

    I heard at Christendom, you can't give a commencement speech without using "magisterium" 47 times

  83. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:56:00 with 1 likes

    Straw man. Is TAC even Catholic? You'd never know it by many of the theses or commencement addresses. They can mean different things to different audiences. It's like code language, but it's really cowardly, and the gutting of sacred theology and the fullness of revelation.

  84. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T17:57:00 with 6 likes

    Does anyone know where Mr. Bonaventure can find a good grinder for his ax?

  85. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T17:58:00 with 7 likes

    "A Flute Player's Madrigal: On the Cowardly Hiding of Anti-Catholic Teachings Behind the Writing of Aristotle"

  86. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:58:00 with 14 likes

    well, I find this all amusing, gentlemen, but I need to log off and work on finding a house to share with other guys who still haven't found a job with their education. I'll try to spend ten or twenty years verifying that they're really Catholic while I'm at it.

  87. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 0 likes

    Liam: did the Dean of Students edit your address for "appropriateness"?

  88. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 0 likes

    Where are you looking Liam Collins?

  89. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T17:59:00 with 2 likes

    Matt: Wichita, KS.

  90. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T18:00:00 with 12 likes

    I'm about to start classes at WSU in aerospace engineering.

  91. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 0 likes

    That brain tho.

  92. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 0 likes

    I would find it troublesome hiring someone who went to a college whose alum seem to collectively boast that no other place comes close to reading the Thomas that they do. That's just messed up.

  93. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:02:00 with 4 likes

    Sound about like what a magisterium-less graduate full of hubris would do, Liam Collins

  94. John Herreid at 2014-08-14T18:04:00 with 20 likes

    That's usually the top question when hiring at most jobs. "How did your college read Thomas Aquinas?"

  95. Mike Potemra at 2014-08-14T18:15:00 with 7 likes

    I have been in love with TAC for many years. I'm thrilled they still put out this list of great senior theses!

  96. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:17:00 with 0 likes

    Most firms have no problem hiring someone who believes that they went to the most Catholic College in America. Catholics are cool. But TACers, in hiring circles, are seen as believing they are the best Aristotelean-Thomists and that this is the best kind of Catholic. This bizarre falsehood is a disservice on many levels. But we live in a free country and you can behave this way if you wish. Don't say I didn't try to tell you.

  97. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:22:00 with 9 likes

    http://www.brainondigital.com/.../habits-highly.../
    The Habits of Highly Effective Internet Trolls - Brain on Digital
    www.brainondigital.com
    Here’s a quick test to find out if you’re an Internet troll: Read the statement ...See More

  98. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:23:00 with 3 likes

    Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality...
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/.../pii/S0191886914000324
    Trolls just want to have fun
    www.sciencedirect.com

  99. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:25:00 with 8 likes

    In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.
    That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves...
    http://www.slate.com/.../internet_troll_personality_study...
    Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic
    www.slate.com
    In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides....See More

  100. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:28:00 with 0 likes

    Yes, of course, TACers are pre-eminent. That goes without saying. There, are you happy now?

  101. Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:28:00 with 0 likes

    don 't you think that's a little harsh, Peterson?

  102. Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:29:00 with 1 likes

    love the slideshow, btw. thanks for sharing!

  103. Anne Marie at 2014-08-14T18:34:00 with 12 likes

    oh, ouch. Just glanced through all comments.Backing away slowly

  104. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:34:00 with 11 likes

    I think it's rather lenient, all things considered.

  105. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:39:00 with 8 likes

    I would be open to looking at any evidence that some other institution requires their students, even within a major, to study more than TAC does re the two authors in question. Certainly no other institution requires as much study of the two of ALL their students as TAC does. But this isn't really a big deal except for the trolling.
    This fact is not directly related to eminence, pre- or otherwise, but I do think it is one of the aspects of TAC, as flawed as it is, that is worth noting and praising. It is a wonderful thing in this day and age to put students in direct contact with that much Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas.

  106. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:40:00 with 0 likes

    Matt, you are free to back up your claim that TAC is generating the best Catholic thinkers and/or simply the best thinkers... But you never seem to able to, despite your amazingly arrogant claims. That's the issue. It's an issue because it bears on Catholic thought. Best regards.

  107. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T18:41:00 with 10 likes

    I never claimed that, of course. But I am close to claiming you may suffer from a trolling illness of some kind...

  108. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T18:53:00 with 0 likes

    What are you claiming, then, Matt? Are you claiming that no other College in America comes close to reading as much Aristotle and Thomas as students do at TAC, and that this is good for a Catholic college? And that this claim is "arrogant"?

  109. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:03:00 with 15 likes

    Have you sought help for your obsessive fixation with TAC?

  110. Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:07:00 with 6 likes

    The best Catholic thinkers come from Yale. Just ask Elliot Milco

  111. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:07:00 with 3 likes

    I mean, I went there, and I have no idea who gives the commencement, or what is said. Hell, I can't even remember who gave ours. Does it keep you up at night wondering how to "bring down those arrogant TAC grads"? Do you get tired of beating the same, sad drum?

  112. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:09:00 with 2 likes

    And Sex Week will enter this convo in 3, 2, 1...

  113. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:09:00 with 9 likes

    sex week

  114. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:10:00 with 4 likes

    I heard Elliot Milco thinks that William F. Buckley is the greatest Catholic thinker of our time, so maybe you are right, Kevin Gallagher.

  115. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:11:00 with 8 likes

    #TrolLOLpalooza

  116. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:12:00 with 1 likes

    ^I see what you did there^

  117. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:15:00 with 0 likes

    Yes, it is eminently -- no -- pre-eminently clear, that TAC produces the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... And if anyone reading this thread has a mind for academia, or Catholic thought, and is unfamiliar with this fraudulent little college, do not be misled by the erudite sounding titles of these seniors' theses. 'Tis nothing but misinformed theological speculation run amok. Send your kids to State College, and teach them how to keep the faith. Lest they graduate and go off into the world and are forced to make an existence by pretending they are the smartest human around the dinner table.

  118. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:16:00 with 8 likes

    you absolutely OOOOOOOZe charity

  119. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:17:00 with 4 likes

    I think parents should send their children to Yale, where they will learn humility and grace.

  120. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:18:00 with 9 likes

    I think they should send them to Christendom, where Magisterium they can learn magisterium how to think magisterium critically but still be magisterium faithful to the ...... the..... teaching authority of the Church

  121. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 16 likes

    But maybe TAC does produce the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... college.

  122. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 2 likes

    bwahahahaha

  123. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:19:00 with 3 likes

    I keed, I keed - I joke with you all.

  124. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:20:00 with 5 likes

    I am a jerk
    TAC produced me
    therefore, etc. QED

  125. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:23:00 with 0 likes

    I'm not the one making false claims about academic superiority. That's truly pathetic.

  126. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:28:00 with 1 likes

    Honestly, I think if you just go and read the original post again, you might be enlightened as to claims made or, as in this case, claims not made.

  127. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T19:36:00 with 0 likes

    The original post reads: "No other college in America requires as much Aristotle and Thomas as TAC... And its fruits reveal your ignorance and yes I am arrogant."
    In fact, the college requires virtually no sacred theology, and teaches practically nothing Catholic in the entire freshman year. It does not teach Sacred Theology; it does not teach the Faith. Yet, the Faith is the only perfection of Reason. Hence. What we are left with is what Bethea says above, which is a public manifestation of the flaws of a rational animal not educated in the Faith.

  128. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:38:00 with 0 likes

    What's your definition of Sacred Theology?? And how can you claim it doesn't teach the Faith?

  129. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-14T19:39:00 with 12 likes

    Actually, I fear I made have fallen for what Matthew was trying to warn regarding...trolling. I immediately regret trying to start a regular conversation.

  130. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:40:00 with 4 likes

    Peregrine Bonaventure: you have made me defend my alma mater today, which is not something I am in the habit of doing, and for this, I thank you.
    The status is kinda jokey: "weep for your ignorance/pray for my arrogance" had a nice over the top ring to it. This isn't entirely serious stuff. If it was entirely serious, I would have some serious issues. But that should be obvious.
    The claim, of course, simply stands as true until you put some evidence where your mouth is.

  131. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T19:41:00 with 3 likes

    Many people read the senior thesis titles and say things like "Wow, I wish I was reading and studying this stuff." The titles are one of the selling points of TAC. And so is the way in which it puts so much Aristotle and St. Thomas right in front of student faces.

  132. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:43:00 with 8 likes

    Peregrine, can I call you Scott? I like Scott better. Are you on the spectrum?

  133. Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:44:00 with 7 likes

    Psh whatever you guys are like amateurs at pretentiousness

  134. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:44:00 with 3 likes

    well the entire East Coast has us beat.

  135. Kevin Gallagher at 2014-08-14T19:45:00 with 2 likes

    to the mannerism born

  136. Jeff Stouffer at 2014-08-14T19:46:00 with 2 likes

    An investigation of unity and complexity...tasty enterprise.

  137. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:53:00 with 2 likes

    Plus, Scott, I am *not* a rational animal. If you had read your St. Thomas you would know that I'm an "intellectual substance, conjoined to matter"

  138. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-14T19:53:00 with 0 likes

    (and it's not "Bethea" it's Beitia. I know you do it on purpose. Are you sure you're not on the spectrum?)

  139. Joel HF at 2014-08-14T19:57:00 with 9 likes

    Pater Edmund, welcome to the REAL best FB thread ever.

  140. Joel HF at 2014-08-14T19:57:00 with 14 likes

    <munches popcorn>

  141. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T20:47:00 with 0 likes

    Matthew J. Peterson, I hope you do not truly believe that you have defended your college, especially when you begin up top with such a typically offensive remark. You have not defended your college. But you have helped shed light on it. TAC was founded by a group of extremely arrogant academics, who were reacting to a socio-sacred phenomenon which occured in the 1960s and 70s; and in their arrogrance, they over-reacted. The proposal of TAC, as a result, has no basis in reality today. Due to this hubris reactionism, TAC alum have had little impact on the lifestream of conservative social thought in America, because it is reactionary and defensive. TAC is simply unable to defend its claim that it offers the world a truly Catholic liberal education, because no such thing exists, as the College proposes. This is an issue, because of TAC's claim to have an association with Catholicism.

  142. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-14T20:56:00 with 15 likes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
    Play Video
    Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

  143. Matthew Reiser at 2014-08-14T21:05:00 with 3 likes

    My lord what a huge class. (A comment that really only makes serious sense to members of the tribe.)

  144. Jacob Alexander at 2014-08-14T21:11:00 with 7 likes

    My goodness what an attractive class.

  145. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T21:18:00 with 1 likes

    *Old TAC'er interjects* ... "In MY day ..."

  146. Katie Duda at 2014-08-14T21:36:00 with 10 likes

    I love the habit of publishing the senior theses' titles. Congrats to the class of '14.
    Funny thing: My title was *ahem* edited for the newsletter.

  147. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-14T22:06:00 with 8 likes

    Andrews Duda......don't leave a gal hanging.....do share.

  148. Matthew Starr at 2014-08-14T22:12:00 with 1 likes

    Beckwith Three words: Wyoming Catholic College

  149. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 9 likes

    can anyone tell me the percentage of TAC alumni that enter the religious life? Must be pretty low since it entirely neglects the faith. Does anyone also know the number of conversions that take place during the student's time at TAC?

  150. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 1 likes

    ^satire?

  151. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:45:00 with 6 likes

    @Peregrine-- you can think what you want about TAC, and we all know the place isn't perfect. It's nothing but amusing, though, to hear Dr MacArthur and Mr Berquist described as "extremely arrogant"! Though I am, of course, being a TAC grad myself, so arrogant I can't see how arrogant all the other alum are.

  152. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:46:00 with 3 likes

    We may be totally non-Catholic, but at least we can recognize satire when we see it!

  153. Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:47:00 with 9 likes

    I really like it how all the people who hold up Christendom as superior to TAC on these Facebook threads have about as much tact as Attila the Hun.

  154. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:48:00 with 12 likes

    Who's Attila the Hun? I went to TAC so I have zero knowledge of history

  155. Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:49:00 with 13 likes

    I'm not quite sure, I've seen him mentioned in P.G. Wodehouse's stories. Perhaps he's some fictional bad guy like Darth Vader.

  156. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-14T22:52:00 with 0 likes

    Blah-blah-blah... It's funny how the Founding Fathers of America realized the importance of the citizenry being able to live under a Constitution that could be Amended. They realized their human weakness; but the founders of a College set their charter in stone because they presumed themselves to be perfect. Needless to say, the graduates of TAC are doing an excellent job of cementing its reputation of being a hot bed of arrogant jerks who argue like women, and women who argue like men.

  157. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:55:00 with 11 likes

    What I just don't understand is the point of that whole last sentence.

  158. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 16 likes

    Andrews You say "argue like a woman" as if it were a bad thing.

  159. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 3 likes

    Pretty sure I've never heard the founders say that they thought what they had done was perfect. In fact I had heard some regrets and changes and disappointments. Were they proud with what they had done, yes! Does that mean they thought it was the perfect and the climax of all life, no!

  160. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-14T22:56:00 with 3 likes

    You're not doing your Alma Mater's reputation any favors yourself....

  161. Edward Langley at 2014-08-14T22:57:00 with 15 likes

    Being a TACer, I learned the important things, like how to spell "Wodehouse", which alcoholic beverages to drink, how to get back into the dorms after curfew.

  162. Liam Collins at 2014-08-14T23:00:00 with 19 likes

    look, I'm willing to grant that McArthur, Berquist, and Neumayr were incredibly brazen. I'm not sure that TAC did deliver to me on all, or even a lot of what I took it to be promising. And I think it is possible there to come away confused about what is Catholicism and what is pagan philosophy, and where the two meet.
    But it was and is a wonderful place, full of kind, prayerful people, who love Jesus Christ. I learned valuable things there, struggled with real questions there, and I am grateful to the founders and to everyone else who has made it to be.
    And I just can't see any reason for all of us, who do share the Mass, the Sacraments, allegiance to Rome, belief that Christ was God and that his teachings, as contained in both Scripture and tradition, will guide us to heaven, to be anything but friends.

  163. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-14T23:03:00 with 11 likes

    How to get back into dorms after curfew: LIFE SKILLZ.

  164. Adrw Lng at 2014-08-14T23:10:00 with 5 likes

    Soul face

  165. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-14T23:11:00 with 17 likes

    I thank you for these threads...much too long and pointless to get involved now, at least gives a glimpse of people with whom I will not be interacting with in the future And I get consolation from FB, "We're sorry that you've had this experience." So am I.
    TAC is not perfect, of course not. Nor is it for everyone. Nor is it the best way for each individual to be educated. But it is the best school for many of us. And it certainly is not inferior to any in its "Catholicity". The insinuation that somehow it is anti-theology, or weak on the faith is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard levelled against it.
    I originally wrote more, but why? I don't see a productive discussion here.

  166. Benjamin Block at 2014-08-14T23:14:00 with 15 likes

    So...just speaking as a non-TAC grad here, I want to say that I think TAC is a fantastic institution, which has produced some really wonderful people (for the record, I'd say the same for WCC or for Christendom). Yes, in some rare instances, I have met TACers who are not so nice, but in those cases, I would blame their own personal choices rather than their teachers or the institution--just as I sincerely hope that nobody thinks ill of my own alma maters simply because of my own personal defects. Ignore the trolls, and keep up the good work, in humility and charity...

  167. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:40:00 with 6 likes

    I remember jake gutierrez's thesis was called "Do Angels Move the Planets" but when they posted the defense schedule, it said "angles" instead of "angels". It was a head-scratcher either way....

  168. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:43:00 with 5 likes

    Am I the only one who reads these every year and thinks that a good number of them are just a little over the top? I mean, God bless TAC and all who dwell there, but come on! It is hard to read a lot of these with a straight face. I still think TAC is the best college ever, but the thesis titles are so often... silly. (Bracing for backlash)

  169. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-14T23:46:00 with 3 likes

    Whoa.... starting to read the comments now.....

  170. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-14T23:58:00 with 5 likes

    Part of the fun was making silly titles

  171. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:02:00 with 1 likes

    I'm kind of regretting being so critical of TAC thesis titles after reading all these comments. I feel like I've just been through a war and I just want some peace. So I'll amend my statement above to say that I understand why TAC thesis titles can sound so convoluted- it's weighty and abstract stuff we wrestle with there. Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter and it's easier to come up with names for papers you write there. So, no offense meant to the class of 2014 or any other grads.

  172. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:05:00 with 1 likes

    Lauren, I had the hardest time coming up with a title I liked, but I didn't spend too much time on that problem because my thesis itself was very unsatisfactory so who gives a crap about he title? I think I ended up with "In Virtue of What do We Call Love of God 'Love'?" I still wince thinking about how badly I botched that topic.

  173. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:06:00 with 3 likes

    "Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter" Ludicrous titles for papers are a plague of all academia, Claire.

  174. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:09:00 with 3 likes

    I'm just thinking about my sister's recent microbiology PhD dissertation at Carnegie Mellon. There was nothing whimsical or wistful or lilting or far-reaching or punny in her title. I'm not even sure it was technically English, but it sounded quite sciency and straightforward.

  175. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:22:00 with 1 likes

    Oh, right. Take a gander at some humanities dissertation titles (or rather, don't, just take my word for it that they are either straightforwardly pedantic and jargony in a silly way, or just plain silly).

  176. Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T00:29:00 with 5 likes

    Mr. Bonaventure - while I retain some small admiration for your sheer stubbornness in the cry of 'hubris', your comments have now plunged clearly into bare insult, and do your position no credit.
    I realize that this is the internet and all that, but I would wager that your Christian vocabulary + trollish behavior on this thread tend to engender a strong sense of disgust in the average reader.
    At the very least, when you throw out phrases like, "I will pray for you, my brother in Christ"... well, let's just rip a line here, and say that I do not think it means what you think it means.

  177. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T00:45:00 with 5 likes

    I just popped back in after spending a few hours on the planet Earth. What a comment thread! If anyone considering attending TAC or Christendom stumbles across this post, I'm pretty sure Steubenville can expect an application. You guys are nuts!

  178. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-15T00:46:00 with 12 likes

    that actually is how steubenville gets all its applicants

  179. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T00:47:00 with 4 likes

    "I thought Steubenville was the only one of these three where people started speaking in tongues...now I'm confused."

  180. Patrick Laurence at 2014-08-15T00:58:00 with 5 likes

    Man, if you've drawn Michael Grumbine out of the woodwork, you *know* you have stepped over the line.

  181. Timothy Halpin at 2014-08-15T02:00:00 with 2 likes

    Wow! I'm glad I didn't go to college.

  182. John Kunz at 2014-08-15T02:06:00 with 1 likes

    Katie - mine was quite edited as well!

  183. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-15T02:56:00 with 3 likes

    Reading this thread was the most fun I've had in a long time.

  184. Monica Murphy at 2014-08-15T06:36:00 with 1 likes

    Just finished teaching my first day of classes this year. This comment thread was perfect Friday fodder for a gin and tonic! Thanks, everyone - with a special shout out to Peregrine and Matthew! . . . still chuckling . . .

  185. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-15T08:38:00 with 23 likes

    Today being the Solemnity of the Assumption and all, I give thanks to God for my Blessed Mother, who gave me divine life, but also for my earthly mother who gave me natural life, and for TAC, my mother in the in the life of the mind. Perhaps I shall write a treatise in the spirit of St Louis de Monfort on "True Devotion to TAC." So for example I might say:
    «These great souls filled with grace and zeal will be oppose the enemies of God who are raging on all sides. They will be exceptionally devoted to the TAC, and illumined by her light... With one hand they will give battle, overthrowing and crushing Platonists, Newtonians, Molinists, and Thomists of a more lax observance... With the other hand they will build a stronghold of true philosophy, namely TAC.... By word and example they will draw all men to a true devotion to her and though this will make many enemies... This seems to have been foretold by Psalm 58: "The Lord will reign in Jacob and all the ends of the earth. They will be converted towards evening and they will be as hungry as dogs and they will go around the city to find something to eat." This city around which men will roam at the end of the world seeking true Aristotelianism and the appeasement of the hunger they have for Thomism of the strict observance is Thomas Aquinas College, which is called "The City of Thomists"»
    Except of course I would never actually say anything like that.

  186. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T09:29:00 with 0 likes

    The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive.
    I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.

  187. Joel HF at 2014-08-15T09:40:00 with 12 likes

    Peregrine stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this TAC grad.' #magesterium #humblerthanthou

  188. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-15T09:46:00 with 9 likes

    Does anyone have a recording of the mid-day report in which Dirk Kennedy or Michael D Byrne or someone called up the Christendom admissions office?

  189. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T09:58:00 with 3 likes

    I think Holy Mother the Church might not want your thanks for your "academic" formation.

  190. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:15:00 with 6 likes

    I still don't get this incomplete presentation of the faith thing. Church fathers, doctors, scripture, Mass 4x a day, confession before and after each mass, daily Eucharist Adoration, 2 League of Mary Praesedium, evening consecrations, daily Rosary, a Jesuit and. Dominican on campus at the same time! Again not to mention the religious that have come out of TAC (percentage wise and just even respected around the globe wise). And all those things are the daily/weekly organized Faith formation opportunities.

  191. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T10:16:00 with 10 likes

    ^stop trying to be reasonable. It just shows your arrogance^

  192. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:23:00 with 0 likes

    Bethea, you do not have the authority to make such "judgements" -- which only underscore the ill-formation of your alma mater, as do your arrogant remarks which are not arguments. On the issue of Faith, TAC does not instruct Sacred Theology in its fullness, but under a guise not only that it does, but does so in a pre-eminent manner. Many Catholic institutions participate in Mass, but without such false claims. I hope you can see how this answers your question.

  193. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:27:00 with 5 likes

    I can't believe this is still going on... just commenting so I can get updates...

  194. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:31:00 with 0 likes

    This is still going on because TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which it was founded.

  195. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:31:00 with 1 likes

    What does it mean to instruct Sacred Theology in it's fullness?

  196. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-15T10:33:00 with 4 likes

    Andrews you do not have the authority to make such "judgements"..........your arrogant remarks which are not arguments.
    **********************************************************************
    Self awareness is your friend.

  197. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:38:00 with 0 likes

    Instructing Sacred Theology in its fullness means to instruct Sacred Theology in the context of the fullness of divinely revealed truths, and not just a partial set thereof, and not principally natural theology under the guise that this is the fullness of Sacred Theology or the pedagogical basis of what and how the Church teaches.
    Bekah, I am not the one making the false, misleading and arrogant claims that TAC and its apologists are making, so your comment is on the level of kindergarten argumentation.

  198. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:43:00 with 1 likes

    So practically speaking what does that look like? Not A partial set, so does that mean all of the divine revelations of Christ through the ages?

  199. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:51:00 with 3 likes

    Let me preface this by saying that I think Christendom is a good school and if I had children I would by no means argue them out of attending there if they wanted to go. (you guys have a much better library, too) But if we are discussing mistaken founding principles, how do you defend the Christendom administration's open discouragement of non-Christian and Protestant applicants? I am curious because that policy seems to me to be mistaken in the extreme.

  200. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T10:57:00 with 2 likes

    Faith perfecting reason...aside from being disillusioned to think that that was always the emphasis I also thought that's what made us not go crazy and all become depressed sophomore year with Augustine and Predestination! (Well that and the exercise of Faith through the Sacraments etc)

  201. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 2 likes

    I am also curious as to whether "teaching Sacred Theology in its fullness" as you have described it something which is, er, actually possible. I think TAC's emphasis on natural philosophy is just that--an emphasis, which has its own merits. It prepares TACers better than some other schools to engage with others on certain issues, and it provides a good foundation for further study in theology. The Christendom emphasis on Church history also has its own benefits and prepares them better than TACers to engage with others on mistaken notions they might jave on Church history.

  202. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 0 likes

    It means presenting the relationship between Faith and reason in proper manner and context, so that sacred or divine revelation and Faith, in our academic formation as Catholics, is the perfection of reason; not the other way around. Faith is the perfection of reason. The science of Faith is sacred theology. The content of sacred theology is revelation, in the deposit of the Faith... in what the Church teaches, in its dogma and in Scripture. So this is the shape of Catholic education. Faith perfecting reason. TAC does not go this way. It does the opposite. Maybe not in the sacramental life of the students, but certainly in the curriculum. It lays out a basis of natural theology, which is a rational metaphysics, as the perfection of Faith.
    And I was not aware of this kind of discrimination at Christendom College. I know Protestant and Evangelical Christians who have gone there.

  203. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T10:58:00 with 0 likes

    *have

  204. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:01:00 with 0 likes

    Nina, the Church has been teaching all things relating to Faith and Reason in this way for centuries. Then, in the 1960s and 1970s, a few guys got together and over-reacted to some bad things that were going on in the world, and this was the birth of TAC, where they presume that supernatural Faith can be perfected by reason and natural theology.

  205. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:01:00 with 2 likes

    I am very glad to hear that, when I went to my admissions interview in 2006 I was informed that they were only looking for Catholic applicants.

  206. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:02:00 with 0 likes

    I do not disbelieve you, and I am sorry to hear that. Perhaps you were being interviewed by a bad apple?

  207. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:04:00 with 1 likes

    The conversation did seem a little strange to me... it was the last straw in my decision not to even apply, despite the very tempting library.

  208. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:06:00 with 6 likes

    "Peregrine", do you realize that you are like someone giving a book review of a book they didn't read? And that someone who has read the book can tell you didn't read it? That's what these threads with you are always like.

  209. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:06:00 with 0 likes

    Yes, that is a tempting library.

  210. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:08:00 with 3 likes

    again with the "Bethea". who the hell is that person? see, I use my REAL name, so I would appreciate the consideration to SPELL it correctly

  211. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:09:00 with 0 likes

    Dominique, no I did not realize that, but thank you for pointing that out. The thing is, I did read the book, and I have seen the movie. And this is not a book or a movie. TAC inverts the relationship between Faith and Reason and produces the opposite of intellectual humility.

  212. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:09:00 with 6 likes

    I don't think "Reason perfecting Faith" is the correct way to view the TAC venture, but rather "Reason illuminating and supporting Faith."

  213. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:10:00 with 7 likes

    shhhh, you'll let him in on our gnosis

  214. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:11:00 with 0 likes

    Well, Nina, that is a subtle nuance, but the thing is, Faith perfects reason. Reason does not illuminate the Faith or support the Faith. Faith is reasonable, and Faith perfects reason.
    And I always thought Bethea was illuminati. TAC gives that impression.

  215. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 4 likes

    Scott, will you just spell it right?

  216. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 2 likes

    I invite you to take a good look at past years of TAC thesis titles besides this, and you will see that there are a number of students who have written on this exact topic. I can think of at least one in my own class (2010) and I am sure there have been others.

  217. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-15T11:12:00 with 3 likes

    Isn't all of Scripture divine revelation? It's such a shame that TAC never has you read the Bib...oh wait, all of Freshman theology.

  218. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:13:00 with 2 likes

    without the magisterium however. (I beat Scott to the punch)

  219. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:14:00 with 0 likes

    Nina, the problem is the TAC curriculum; it is not the value of the theses written. If a curriculum is not set up formally so that Faith perfects reason, then what is the quality of reason that "illumines" the Faith?

  220. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:15:00 with 9 likes

    Peregrine, after reading your comments here, I have six friends who have decided to convert to Catholicism and immediately apply to Christendom. You are a wonderful ambassador for the faith. Now, kindly step away from the keyboard and answer your door. Do whatever the nice men in the white jackets tell you.

  221. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:17:00 with 2 likes

    Really? I thought you only read the first couple chapters? If you read he whole book you will have a legitimate basis for a review. You don't have to like the book after reading the whole thing, but at least you'd know what you're talking about.

  222. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-15T11:18:00 with 6 likes

    Let's not do the TAC vs. Cdom thing!! They can both stand on their own merits.

  223. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:20:00 with 3 likes

    I am thinking primarily of Newman's Development of Christian Doctrine when I speak of reason "illuminating"-- that is, we can say there has been a development of doctrine and further understanding of the Faith without saying that the Faith has altered or changed. In the same way, TAC's emphasis on natural theology does not mean that the supernatural effects of grace have been somehow negated or argued against. did that make sense as an analogy? I am not sure I am saying it quite right...

  224. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:20:00 with 1 likes

    don't bother. this drum-beating is two years old.

  225. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 0 likes

    Christopher, Scripture is only part of revelation. Again, it is context.
    Aaron, you demonstrate quite well that TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which its curriculum was founded.
    Dominique, again you are not addressing the central issue here, which is that TAC was founded by over-reactionaries who established a curriculum which does not place Faith and Reason in proper context, and this has resulted in a character of hubris reasoning in its students, instead of students informed by Faith which has perfected their reason.
    It is clear that TAC is unable to address this central issue, and I rest my case.

  226. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 8 likes

    endless repetition isn't "resting" Scott

  227. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:21:00 with 1 likes

    Yeah, I didn't go to TAC, smart guy.

  228. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:22:00 with 11 likes

    it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"

  229. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:23:00 with 0 likes

    Bethea, resting is resting. TAC is unable to account for itself, because it's curriculum is ill-founded, on this central issue of the relationship between Faith and Reason.

  230. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T11:25:00 with 0 likes

    Off to do an errand, have fun kids...

  231. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-15T11:25:00 with 3 likes

    If I were one of those fundamentalists who hates the Catholic Church and believes the Pope is the Antichrist, and someone told me to design a bot that would pose as a Catholic in order to discredit the Church, I would design something very similar to Peregrine Bonaventure.

  232. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:27:00 with 1 likes

    His name is Scott

  233. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:27:00 with 2 likes

    Scott-bot

  234. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-15T11:29:00 with 3 likes

    Oh Nina! You just added another reading that I had forgotten about!! (Must be because it got lost in seminar!) Does it count that I had a Dominican priest co-lead my already awesome senior Theology classes on the Sacraments? Does that make the context better?

  235. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:32:00 with 0 likes

    I'm sorry you guys aren't able to mount a credible defense of the curriculum.

  236. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:37:00 with 3 likes

    I'm sorry you can't spell. Or be coherent.

  237. Alex Lessard at 2014-08-15T11:38:00 with 17 likes

    Trolls aside, through the unsurpassed curriculum and excellents tutors at TAC, our daughter (in the 2014 list) was able to explore the relationship between science & theology in a more profound way than I saw in many years of grad school in theology at a major Catholic university. I don't know of any other place that builds that cultivated freedom of thought into its program. Certainly not at the other schools mentioned here, despite their other merits.

  238. Ursi Engebretsen at 2014-08-15T11:40:00 with 1 likes

    Wow...ouch...a lot of these comments are real encouraging to someone who's going back to TAC in a week to start Junior year...

  239. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:43:00 with 0 likes

    Really, Mr. Bethea?
    I think the concern is very, very coherent. 1) the curriculum at TAC does not give pre-eminence of place to the fullness of faith and sacred theology, but gives this place to natural theology; 2) this leads to intellectual hubris, and an imperfection of reason, (as is demonstrated by many of your comments).

  240. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:44:00 with 3 likes

    there is a time for argument, and a time for the club. the time for argument has long passed

  241. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:47:00 with 0 likes

    That's a dodge, Bethea. TAC has never answered this concern, because the concern is well-founded, and TAC is off-base.

  242. Adrw Lng at 2014-08-15T11:47:00 with 8 likes

    "By its own essential character, theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man, for it has in a pre-eminent way that which is desired in all of them. Liberal education undertaken by Christians and ordered to theology turns out to be liberal education in its fullness."
    --Founding Document of Thomas Aquinas College

  243. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:48:00 with 8 likes

    ^as translated from hieroglyphics^

  244. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:53:00 with 0 likes

    Mr. Adrw Lng, the passage you cite is lip service. The use the word "theology" in the passage you cite effectively translates into "natural theology" in the TAC curriculum. Moreover, at no point in its curriculum, does TAC actually teach its students what Catholic theology really means or is, hence it does it accurately teach what the relationship between faith and reason is. This is manifestly obvious.
    Bethea, you are a thug.

  245. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:55:00 with 1 likes

    a thug that can spell, Mr. Weinberg

  246. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:55:00 with 1 likes

    4-0-0 S C T A C (you'll have to imagine the gang signs) Matthew J. Peterson can demonstrate

  247. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T11:57:00 with 0 likes

    Yup, you're a thug.

  248. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:57:00 with 1 likes

    I'm glad we both agree on that

  249. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T11:58:00 with 1 likes

    (he says to the thread hijacking rattling drum)

  250. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:01:00 with 0 likes

    So, TAC is not able to address the concern in its curriculum. It hides its head in the sand. The concern is that it misrepresents Catholic theology, which undercuts the principle of Faith perfecting reason, and supports intellectual hubris.
    Witness Beithea.

  251. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:02:00 with 1 likes

    Closer. don't you have some health and human servicing to do?

  252. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:03:00 with 0 likes

    Thug.

  253. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:11:00 with 5 likes

    like most of the rest of this, just because you say it, doesn't make it true

  254. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:15:00 with 0 likes

    What makes it true is a reference to clubbing as opposed to simply addressing a valid concern.
    Again, the concern is that the TAC curriculum does not portray Sacred Theology correctly, but replaces it with natural theology.

  255. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:16:00 with 3 likes

    I have my gang-banging minions to respond to your "concerns". And if you had read your Aristotle, you'd recognize the reference

  256. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:18:00 with 0 likes

    Your comment is ridiculous.

  257. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:19:00 with 1 likes

    you're just now figuring that out?

  258. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-15T12:21:00 with 0 likes

    OK, this is really a joke.

  259. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T12:21:00 with 6 likes

    It is. Glad you caught on.

  260. Christopher Sebastian at 2014-08-15T12:39:00 with 1 likes

    FIN?
    See Translation

  261. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T12:47:00 with 8 likes

    Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll troll troll.

  262. John Hall at 2014-08-15T13:04:00 with 2 likes

    Oh my.

  263. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-15T13:14:00 with 4 likes

    "No longer receive notifications about Matthew J. Peterson's link" - check!

  264. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:16:00 with 6 likes

    " it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"
    Or Heraclitus, "The dog returns to it's own vomit"

  265. Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:18:00 with 3 likes

    Your inference, as usual, is so right, Patrick - I should've stayed in the shadows despite the marginally clever troll.
    'Marginally' conceded only because I'm now weighing the amusing possibility that dear Scotty truly is blind to his own nature on this thread.
    My bad. Well really, it's Peterson's bad, but who can blame him? The lack of a properly enlightened background in authentic Sacred Theology has clearly had a strange, softening effect on his mind.

  266. Anne Marie at 2014-08-15T13:18:00 with 3 likes

    "But we Catholics must pray with each other and other Christians. Pray that the Lord gift us unity! Unity among ourselves! How will we ever have unity among Christians if we are not capable of having it among us Catholics, in the family, how many families fight and split up? Seek unity, unity builds the Church and comes from Jesus Christ. He sends us the Holy Spirit to build unity!" Pope Francis.

  267. Anne Marie at 2014-08-15T13:24:00 with 4 likes

    Peace, friends. Let's not let a little online squabble divide us. Our lady of the Assumption, queen of peace, love and humility, pray for us!

  268. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:24:00 with 18 likes

    Erik Bootsma's photo.

  269. Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:25:00 with 4 likes

    Win. ^^^

  270. Michael Grumbine at 2014-08-15T13:26:00 with 1 likes

    And well put, Alex.

  271. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:28:00 with 3 likes

    Erik Bootsma's photo.

  272. John Hall at 2014-08-15T13:34:00 with 26 likes

    I don't think I've ever seen this many TACers agree on anything.
    It's kind of like how humanity always unites in those movies where the aliens invade.

  273. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-15T13:35:00 with 7 likes

    I just look for any good excuse to flash TAC gang signs

  274. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T13:37:00 with 2 likes

    I flash that every time I go to the in law's house. Three at Christendom now.

  275. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-15T13:39:00 with 6 likes

    you know a conversation about the philosophical particularities of the founders (often unspoken at TAC- you had to poke around to find out sometimes, or just pay extremely close attention), and possible tendencies to intransigence regarding those, would really be worth having, but untrolled

  276. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-15T13:47:00 with 3 likes

    a conversation about the ratio studiorum of the program, and the role of sacred theology therein, would also be worth having (again, only if untroubled)

  277. Jeff Neill at 2014-08-15T13:54:00 with 3 likes

    http://warrencountyreport.com/.../south_river_and_the... Is trolling a habit, a knack, an art, or a skill?
    Warren County Report: South River and the Hatch Act
    warrencountyreport.com
    « Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time | Main | ‘Oh, people will come, people will most definitely come’ »

  278. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-15T14:14:00 with 0 likes

    I think Inigo had the last word apparently.

  279. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-15T14:20:00 with 1 likes

    I would like to have a discussion with someone about the constitution of the curriculum, for example, I am curious as to whether anyone else thinks the Politics should be read in seminar instead of tutorial.

  280. Dominic Bolin at 2014-08-15T15:03:00 with 14 likes

    Personally, I think Peregrine Bonaventure, Scott Weinburg, Jonathan Scott, or whatever his real name may be, might have a good point. Unfortunately, it's so buried under the way he expresses it, almost no one will ever see it.

  281. Ken Masugi at 2014-08-15T19:23:00 with 0 likes

    Would Aristotle sky-dive? Who do you say I am?

  282. John Tuttle at 2014-08-15T22:33:00 with 3 likes

    I agree, the sky-diving Aristotle thesis sounds great! "Boady, this is your F#@%ing wake up call, man. I am a PHILOSOPHER!"

  283. John Kunz at 2014-08-16T02:29:00 with 3 likes

    For everyone's next tattoo.
    John Kunz's photo.

  284. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T04:43:00 with 7 likes

    Despite JA Escalante's scoffing above (as in way above), some TAC theses have been really good, more than fulfilling the promise of their titles. I would like to edit a volume of some of the best. Can everyone nominate some of their favorites? I'll go first (not using the titles, which I can't remember):
    Peter Kay on Shakespeare's political thought,
    Joseph Bolin on Vocation,
    Rachel Berquist on the Filioque,
    Another Berquist girl on the politics of medieval Spain,
    Joe Zepeda on the Song of Songs,
    Henry Zepeda on Cartesian Geometry,
    Joe Kenny on "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
    Catherine Joliat Feil on Aristotle's Politics,
    Catherine Ryland on hospitality,
    David Isaac on music,
    and (without false modesty) Pater Edmund on monarchy... lots more that I'll add when I think of them...

  285. Peter Halpin at 2014-08-16T05:13:00 with 3 likes

    Closing time...

  286. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-16T12:39:00 with 3 likes

    Pater Edmund: Jeff Froula on the certainty of hope, and Katie Duda on Dante's Paradiso as an icon. I imagine your father's was pretty good! What did he write on?

  287. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-16T12:49:00 with 7 likes

    Michael D. Byrne's authoritative treatise on Hegel, and let's have a moment of silence for the thesis-that-never-was, Joe Cheney's rejected thesis, De Urinatione.

  288. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T13:31:00 with 4 likes

    Joe, my father wrote on Balthasar's aesthetics, but I'm afraid I haven't read his thesis. My mother tells me that it was "too long."

  289. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-16T13:44:00 with 2 likes

    Nathan Ciarleglio's "the idea of limit in the Histories of Herodotus"

  290. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-16T13:47:00 with 6 likes

    Unrelated fact about my father: his high-school senior Matura thing was "The poetry of Hölderlin, Rilke and Trakl in the literary criticism of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Romano Guardini."

  291. Ryan Burke at 2014-08-16T14:02:00 with 4 likes

    There was one on Dante's De Monarchia, but I can't recall who wrote it. And Burke's on how Pater Edmond is wrong was OK

  292. Ryan Burke at 2014-08-16T14:03:00 with 2 likes

    Can we still get old theses from TAC? Has anyone done that lately?

  293. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-16T14:21:00 with 1 likes

    Email Mark Kretchmer

  294. Angela Lessard at 2014-08-16T15:14:00 with 2 likes

    Let's keep going, we can't quit before getting to a nice perfect number 300, can we?

  295. Thomas Quackenbush at 2014-08-16T17:08:00 with 6 likes

    Elizabeth Quackenbush Brideshead thesis.

  296. Samantha Cohoe at 2014-08-16T19:28:00 with 6 likes

    I accidentally liked a dozen comments signed in as my husband. Friend me, Peterson! I was dangerously close to missing this thread entirely.

  297. Nick Zepeda at 2014-08-16T19:55:00 with 0 likes

    Nerdfest!! Ha.

  298. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-16T20:47:00 with 3 likes

    Yes, I forgot about Elizabeth Quack's thesis - really excellent.

  299. Anne Marie at 2014-08-16T22:58:00 with 0 likes

    I just can't resist....

  300. Anne Marie at 2014-08-16T22:58:00 with 0 likes

    Being the 300th comment! Oh ya!

  301. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-16T23:14:00 with 1 likes

    Why do I love reading these titles every year?

  302. Angela Lessard at 2014-08-17T00:24:00 with 0 likes

    Joe, do you get these sent to you, or did you have a personal connection to these?

  303. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-17T02:50:00 with 1 likes

    I had a personal connection to all except Miss Quackenbush's, which her esteemed father linked on facebook.

  304. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-17T03:09:00 with 2 likes

    And here it is: https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUUHJlazdC.../edit...
    Brideshead Thesis.pdf - Google Drive
    docs.google.com

  305. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T04:59:00 with 4 likes

    Roy Axel Coats on the division of the fine arts.

  306. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T05:00:00 with 2 likes

    Peter Knuffke on transcendentals.

  307. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-17T05:01:00 with 4 likes

    Dr. McArthur once told me that the flourishing of a liberal education requires that we esteem each man our better, as Paul said, and not be puffed up. Keeping that in mind, I will say I wrote a Dante thesis out of which some people got a pretty decent kick.
    "I Saw The Scattered Elements Unite": Justice, Mercy and Order in the Divine Comedy.
    I went into it hoping to get TACers more interested in Dante, and partly as a result of this the school is now stocking Tony Esolen's radiantly awesome translation in the bookstore, so I consider it a personal success.

  308. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-17T05:04:00 with 1 likes

    Also, on the subject of Brideshead. and in no way diminishing Elizabeth Quackenbush's thesis for which she is so rightly praised, there is also Pat Dolan's wonderful exploration of the motif of the pastoral poetry tradition in Brideshead. I have a paper copy and I reread it when I want to be reminded that my class is really smart and stuff.

  309. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-17T07:37:00 with 4 likes

    Tom Short on torture (the first draft, not the final version after Mr. Goyette persuaded him to water down the main argument).

  310. Clayton Brockman at 2014-08-17T07:45:00 with 3 likes

    Oh snap, I remember that one.

  311. Ryan Burke at 2014-08-17T08:42:00 with 1 likes

    All the more interesting in light of Capt Short's profession.

  312. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T09:44:00 with 2 likes

    No one should forget Alex Wiseman's brilliant thesis on Kepler.

  313. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T09:46:00 with 3 likes

    I may be speaking to soon, but I think the troll is gone. I have encountered this one before (though I think under a different name). Joe Zepeda is spot on. Do not feed him. There is no possible dialogue, no possible point of discussion.

  314. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-17T10:03:00 with 4 likes

    Oh, and for good measure:
    TAC is the best and I am the best!!!
    USA! USA! USA!

  315. Margaret Grimm at 2014-08-17T10:16:00 with 0 likes

    Blackwell Joe , do you have a copy of yours online? I read some of it and was frankly blown away. But then, you've long demonstrated an uncanny ability for shedding new light on old ideas starting with your observation-at the age of 4- that one can't be and not be a rotten egg at the same time.

  316. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-17T10:42:00 with 6 likes

    "There Are But Three Novels: How Reading Authors Other Than Waugh, O'Connor, and Undset Marks One as Insufficiently Catholic."

  317. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-17T12:27:00 with 4 likes

    Looking up from reading this thread all the way to the end was, for a moment, like staring at an alien world. I don't remember the last time I was this disoriented. Madness.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI
    Play Video
    Its a MADHOUSE! (Planet of the Apes, 1968) - Edited
    Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

  318. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T13:27:00 with 3 likes

    Kevin Kasson wrote a pretty cool one. And I personally learned a lot from Margaret Ryland's. Michael Masteller's was huge as well.

  319. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T13:31:00 with 3 likes

    and mine was, well, at least controversial enough to draw over 80 people to my defense, according to a few people who tried to count.

  320. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-17T13:54:00 with 4 likes

    my defense was standing room only, but the thesis was crap and the defense worse

  321. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T14:03:00 with 0 likes

    haha. My defense was a bit of a letdown as well. But I reread the thesis for the first time a few months ago, and I still agree with it pretty strongly at least.

  322. Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T14:34:00 with 3 likes

    What was the thesis of your thesis, Liam? Also, I've heard the tutors were quite impressed with Louise Milton's thesis on Goethe's Faust.

  323. John Kunz at 2014-08-17T14:41:00 with 6 likes

    Ok wait - when did the love fest happen? Is the bickering done???
    Surprised no one has brought up Tim Furlan's dissertation... In our time, that was the event of all events... I had over standing room only at mine, but his filled most of the hallway in the entire classroom building... And it was amazing.

  324. Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T14:59:00 with 3 likes

    Also, Philip D. Knuffke's thesis on imagination as the cause of error and David Freer's thesis on predestination were quite good.

  325. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-17T15:00:00 with 2 likes

    Mary Colette Masteller's on Anna Karenina

  326. Róisín Grimm at 2014-08-17T15:59:00 with 7 likes

    I haven't enjoyed a thread this much in a very, very long time. Thank you all. And I have to say, I think the current prez of Cdom (whom I'm fortunate to refer to, viz a viz my marriage, as "Uncle Tim") would be mortified to find that our friendly neighborhood troll associates so closely with that otherwise fine institution.

  327. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T16:29:00 with 6 likes

    Edward Langley, here's the precis:
    Christ says: “my Father is at work until now, so I am at work.”
    This thesis is fundamentally an endeavor to be fully open to God's ongoing work in the world, a work which occurs above all in and through the human race.
    It is revealed to the Christian and seen with increasing clarity by the scientist that the world around us is not unchanging and eternal, but fundamentally historical. Historical development occurs in many ways, including a development of the cosmos's awareness of itself in man. This development is intelligible to the Christian in it's guidance by, and orientation towards, God. The Christian knows that the created universe is a sign of God, and that God is at work in the perfection of this sign.
    These insights, among other things, enable one to fully embrace the pressingly apparent fact that science has progressed in deeply meaningful ways in the course of its history, most noticeably in the phenomenal insights had by empirical science in the last several hundred years. These developments are not simply the inconsequential details following from eternal, divine principles; they are wonderful insights into the makings of a universe in which God continues to be intimately present, and for the sake of which the general laws of science exist.

  328. Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T18:24:00 with 0 likes

    I'm always slightly confused when people talk about the world around us being fundamentally historical. Is that to say you cannot understand the kinds of things you find in it without studying its history? Or is it to say that the easiest access we have to those things is through history, or is it merely a claim about understanding human society.

  329. Joel HF at 2014-08-17T18:46:00 with 1 likes

    Aletheia Herreid Née Price wrote one on Beauty and Art that was amazing.

  330. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-17T19:07:00 with 1 likes

    Edward , are you trying to start another discussion within this crazy place? This is when an administrator of a discussion forum would start a new thread. Then again... We probably would have all be kicked off the site by now too!

  331. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T19:08:00 with 1 likes

    haha, yeah, I do get the feeling that Edward probably has a response to any of the three options which he just proposed.

  332. Liam Collins at 2014-08-17T19:09:00 with 1 likes

    which I would be happy to hear, but I'm going to pick my poison after dashing off to dinner right now...

  333. Edward Langley at 2014-08-17T21:21:00 with 1 likes

    Actually, I think I'm alright with the last of the three Lauren, shh, I've been working hard to adopt a new, more attentive, image.
    EDIT: perhaps this conversation should end here, we have exactly 333 comments ...

  334. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-17T21:50:00 with 7 likes

    I learned all the pickup lines and skipped the Thomism. Then I went to seminary. I MAY HAVE DONE THIS WRONG

  335. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T16:07:00 with 0 likes

    A good Catholic college provides students with a curriculum that helps them develop a theological habit of spirit. A theological habit of spirit supports the reasonability of devotion. This habit always begins with intellectual assent to sacred truths, revealed, which cannot be known with reason. The theological habit of spirit seeks understanding. It does not begin with natural truths or proofs and, if it is excluded, undercuts the role of Faith to perfect reason. It also undercut theological speculation.

  336. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T16:11:00 with 8 likes

    "Dr. Ronald McArthur, the first president of Thomas Aquinas College in California passed away on the morning of October 17, 2013. Like Christendom’s founder, Dr. Warren Carroll, McArthur was a pioneer in the renewal of faithful Catholic higher education in America. McArthur was awarded Christendom College’s Pro Deo et Patria Medal for Distinguished Service to Church and Nation in 2007 during Christendom’s 30th Anniversary Convocation.
    'He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are doing here,' Christendom College president Dr. Timothy O’Donnell said. 'He has gone on to his eternal reward and we ask that you please pray for the repose of his soul and for the comfort of his family. He was a dear friend and will be missed.'
    Eternal rest grant unto Dr. Ronald McArthur, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen."
    http://www.christendom.edu/news/2013/10-17-mcarthur.php
    College Mourns the Loss of Dr. Ronald McArthur
    www.christendom.edu
    “He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are d...See More

  337. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T16:24:00 with 0 likes

    Much of history and science and the universe is outside the scope of revelation. Dr. Warren Carroll leaned on the term "salvation history" heavily to help show how God works in time and space. So, he adhered strictly to this idea of a theological habit of mind. This habit begins with intellectual assent to revealed truths. Without this habit, the Catholic student may fall prey to wide ranging speculation which effectively imposes imaginary specifications onto the Faith.

  338. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T16:38:00 with 5 likes

    You know, I really do think that this thread is what happens when someone who knows nobody is going to agree with him has a psychological inability not to try for the last word.

  339. John Herreid at 2014-08-18T16:38:00 with 9 likes

    I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary.

  340. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:04:00 with 0 likes

    Speaking of Dr. McArthur, I recently lost all my prayer cards that were in a missal... Does anyone that had him for senior theology have time to type up the prayer of St Thomas Aquinas that the saint would say after consecration? I know McArthur handed them out to all his theology students. (Oh Godhead hid, devoutly I adore thee, who truly art within these forms before me, to thee my heart I bow with bended knee... Etc)

  341. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:05:00 with 0 likes

    It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,

  342. Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:21:00 with 8 likes

    Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.

  343. Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:22:00 with 3 likes

    Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.

  344. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:24:00 with 6 likes

    Sweet honey on the rock! The Peregrine troll again?
    Will this thread never end?

  345. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:24:00 with 3 likes

    Edward Langley Ignore Pilgrim Goodeffort.

  346. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:26:00 with 6 likes

    Let's change the subject.
    Is it true that the goat-stag tastes like chicken?

  347. John Herreid at 2014-08-18T17:28:00 with 4 likes

    Speaking of goats, what is this? Is it goat, or is it barrel?
    John Herreid's photo.

  348. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:35:00 with 0 likes

    If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.

  349. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:43:00 with 4 likes

    John Herreid That's a very good question! I think it's an allegory on modernism. A satire on the confusion of discrete with continuous quantity.

  350. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-18T17:43:00 with 7 likes

    Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well.

  351. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:45:00 with 7 likes

    I like turtles.

  352. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:48:00 with 6 likes

    Joe Zepeda Matthew J. Peterson If Aristotle and Batman got in a fight, who would win?

  353. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:48:00 with 10 likes

    I'm starting to wonder what life would be like without this thread

  354. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:49:00 with 4 likes

    This thread should go on forever! Seriously!
    Let's see how long we can make it.

  355. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T17:56:00 with 0 likes

    If TAC assents to the sacred truth from which sacred theology and the Catholic Faith stems, then why does TAC not include all of it, but only includes some of it. St. Thomas frowns upon that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because TAC wants to think it can reason more impressively about complex things. But reason illuminating Faith is not a maxim of the Faith.
    And who is this Scott fellow you keep refering to?
    I am The Peregrine.

  356. John Herreid at 2014-08-18T17:57:00 with 9 likes

    Jason, that's a silly question. The real question would be if Aristotle and Batman got in a friendship based upon mutual concern for the polis, would it be a true friendship? (Second question: would Aristotle find Batman's relationship with Robin a little weird?)
    I am The Walrus.

  357. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T17:58:00 with 4 likes

    I'm Batman.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0F1fEQeWF8
    Play Video
    The Ultimate "I'm Batman!" Compilation
    PART 2 IS HERE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUXvMymZC7A&feature=youtu.be Just...See More

  358. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T17:58:00 with 5 likes

    This whole "all" of Sacred Theology seems like it would take longer than the life of the earth to accomplish.

  359. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:01:00 with 3 likes

    Does all include all of St. Augustine? I've heard it said no two men such as men are today could possibly read all that he has written.

  360. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:01:00 with 0 likes

    Reading "the most Aristotle and St. Thomas" is not the measure of the most excellent Catholic thinker, student or theologian. Get it?

  361. John Herreid at 2014-08-18T18:02:00 with 12 likes

    "You must begin a reading program immediately so that you may understand the crises of our age. Begin with the late Romans, including Boethius, of course. Then you should dip rather extensively into early Medieval. You may skip the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. That is mostly dangerous propaganda. Now that I think of it, you had better skip the Romantics and the Victorians, too. For the contemporary period, you should study some selected comic books. I recommend Batman especially, for he tends to transcend the abysmal society in which he's found himself. His morality is rather rigid, also. I rather respect Batman.”
    —Ignatius J. Reilly, Confederacy of Dunces

  362. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:03:00 with 6 likes

    I only read St Augustine and Batman.

  363. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:04:00 with 0 likes

    See, you can't address the issue, but only resort to idiocy. You're in denial.

  364. Margaret Grimm at 2014-08-18T18:05:00 with 10 likes

    Blackwell For The Peregrine.
    Margaret Grimm Blackwell's photo.

  365. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:05:00 with 1 likes

    Do tell us then what "Sacred Theology" is comprised of.

  366. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:06:00 with 0 likes

    Self-referential, echo-chamber, non-critical, idiocy.

  367. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:06:00 with 2 likes

    Don't feed the troll!

  368. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:08:00 with 4 likes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKlmc8HpkI4
    Play Video
    JOAN BAEZ ~ I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine ~
    Joan Baez ~ I DREAMED I SAW SAINT AUGUSTINE ~ The significance of this song is t...See More

  369. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:11:00 with 0 likes

    Are you telling us something about this thread?

  370. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:12:00 with 0 likes

    All/some. Whole/part. These are fairly basic concepts. If you do not grasp the idea of the fullness of the Catholic Faith, in its revealed principles, this might explain how someone might write a thesis about how God is revealed in all Christians or in all things knowable.

  371. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T18:14:00 with 0 likes

    I will tell you you have it wrong, Mr. Bootsma, and most certainly not quite right, which with this matter is wrong.

  372. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:14:00 with 2 likes

    Tom Sundaram Tell us abut Dante.

  373. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:16:00 with 6 likes

    Ooh, yes! I think I will!
    So Dante was a 14th century Italian from Florence. One day when he was nine, he saw...
    A WOMAN.
    (if you want me to continue the story, please applaud or indicate thus otherwise. )

  374. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:16:00 with 7 likes

    No, tell us ALL about Dante

  375. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:17:00 with 5 likes

    The fullness. Give us the fullness of Dante.
    Because this thread MUST NOT END!

  376. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:18:00 with 2 likes

    Okay. So he saw a woman. But not just any woman. She was Beatrice, and he fell in love. Now, normally you or I, if we fell for someone, might write...what? Can anyone give me examples?

  377. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:18:00 with 0 likes

    Love letters? A limerick?

  378. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:19:00 with 6 likes

    You know, I was just going to say "dirty limericks" if nobody said anything.

  379. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 3 likes

    Poetry! And Dante wrote poetry for her. Initially it was really bad by the standards of the day, which means that to this day classicists still nerd out over it. But eventually it got pretty good, and he invented a new style of poetry, the "dolce stil nuovo."

  380. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 3 likes

    Going to bed. (Past 1 am in Estonia). Can't wait to see how long this thread gets by the time I wake up!

  381. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:20:00 with 1 likes

    Heh, I have to study Italian, myself, but I will tell a little more.

  382. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:21:00 with 3 likes

    So Dante set out to write BETTER poetry. A poem to span the ages, which settled for no theme less than the Love that moves the Sun and the other stars, in adoration of the Trinity and in veneration of his own, sainted Beatrice.

  383. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:22:00 with 1 likes

    He was pretty smitten, eh?

  384. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:23:00 with 3 likes

    We need a sign up sheet to keep this thread going. Like Perpetual Adoration.

  385. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:23:00 with 0 likes

    Now, a poem like that, you can't just write about the Shire - you need some Minas Tirith, and a lot of Silmarillon. So in order to do even a halfway good job, he needed to start by getting his liberal education on. From his studies of Philosophy, he produced three very notable works: the Convivio, or banquet, his metaphysics (his Silmarillon, if you will!); the De Monarchia, his political philosophy per se in light of the Incarnation; and finally the De Vulgari Eloquentia, his De Interpretatione or his Elvish, if you'd like.

  386. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-18T18:24:00 with 0 likes

    Off to bed! Keep it up!

  387. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:26:00 with 2 likes

    These three works are still epochal works in first philosophy, political theory and linguistics respectively, and show signs of his education by both the Dominicans and the Franciscans, as well as his rhetorical training under Brunetto Latini, Dante's "Ser Brunetto." But to the Divine Commedia, they were only to be handmaids, as Philosophy is to Theology. (Hence his enduring belief in Philosophy as a Lady - in fact, as Mary, "our tainted nature's solitary boast", was the handmaid of the Lord, so philosophy is the handmaid of the Trinity.)

  388. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:30:00 with 1 likes

    When he had finished these, he set out to depict nothing less than the poetic exposition of the cosmic character of the Eucharist as the Incarnational mode of communion with the Trinitarian life. But to do this he had to illustrate precisely the highest mode by which we can relate to God as being simply the being of God Himself - Love. And he wanted to display, by his pen, the enduring and primary truth about creation - that the order of the existence of all things is not a rigorous necessity, as though God had to create us just so according to a rigid and immutable a priori law (Inferno - "He broke the rigid sentence from above") or its seeming abandonment (Purgatorio) but according to His truly immutable Will, which in its immutability captures the purpose of all mutability.

  389. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-18T18:31:00 with 7 likes

    "I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary."
    AMEN to this.

  390. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:32:00 with 0 likes

    In doing this, he realized that the only epistemological mode of truly accessing this mystery was the Beatific Vision of God Himself, especially the Person of Christ. So to do this, he had to depict nothing less than a poetic inroad into that super-knowable knowledge. Hence, the conclusion of his Paradiso, in which the entire symphonic order of the other two Books finds its climax and fruition.

  391. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T18:32:00 with 1 likes

    Okay, now my fingers are tired. Maybe more later. Someone else needs to pick up the baton.

  392. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:40:00 with 1 likes

    Poor answer Scott. Poor answer. What is theology then, if you wont tell me what "all of sacred theology" is, at least you can tell me what it is in it's essence.

  393. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T18:41:00 with 4 likes

    Again,
    Erik Bootsma's photo.

  394. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T18:50:00 with 9 likes

    Dude. I logged off of the Book of Faces for days...AND IT'S ALIVE!

  395. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T18:51:00 with 21 likes

    This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates everywhere. Reason, Logic, and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no use, people.

  396. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T18:52:00 with 7 likes

    Yeah, but you can't use sticks on Facebook.

  397. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-18T18:57:00 with 4 likes

    I think we need to push the number of comments on this thread up over 400. Who's with me? *puts hand to ear*

  398. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:11:00 with 4 likes

    AMERICA, HECK YEAH

  399. Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-18T19:15:00 with 3 likes

    Weiss Naive and earnest....good description of the TAC ethos.

  400. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T19:24:00 with 0 likes

    What is theology if not the fullness of the Faith, and what is the fullness if only St. Thomas. I wish he were the Pope today, but God's providence seems to be otherwise.

  401. Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:30:00 with 3 likes

    I comment as a St. Johnnie. I don't think the point of TAC is to instruct in Sacred Theology as a subject, but rather to teach young people how to read and think while living in a Catholic milieu. They are supposed to have the foundation for continuing to learn about the faith, for evaluating new ideas which come along, for being informed Catholics and informed citizens. It isn't a seminary!

  402. Max Summe at 2014-08-18T19:30:00 with 1 likes

    Mr. (Scott) Peregeine (Weinberg) Bonaventure: Did you go to Christendom?

  403. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:31:00 with 5 likes

    Susan: There's a LOT of Theology, and the whole program is ordered to its study. (Peregrine is really, really not someone worth discussing this with, I promise you.)

  404. Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:34:00 with 0 likes

    But it isn't indoctrination and that sounds like what Mr Bonadventure is pushing for.

  405. Susan Peterson at 2014-08-18T19:36:00 with 1 likes

    I only wish I had a chance to study like that. I wish you had a summer graduate institute like SJC so I could go through even a shadow of your program.

  406. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:37:00 with 3 likes

    Oh, sure, it's not raw catechesis, which he apparently thinks is something people should be getting in college, instead of even before 8th grade when most people today get it. It's the actual study of theology, which, contra illam troglodytam, involves philosophy as an ancillary discipline.

  407. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:37:00 with 1 likes

    I can sympathise with Susan's point (though my perspective is pretty limited having done only one full year). The theology seems fairly pedestrian - extremely orthodox and superb for what it is, but as the almighty Dr. McArthur said to me once, "you probably shouldn't come here for scholarship." Given that the foundations of Catholic theology are notably absent from high school curricula, maybe this back-to-basics approach is necessary.

  408. Max Summe at 2014-08-18T19:38:00 with 5 likes

    I'm just really curious about Mr. Weinberg's past now. What happened to him? Why does he hate TAC so much?
    Much more interesting than anything he wants to talk about...

  409. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:38:00 with 2 likes

    Thanks for the kind words for the program, Susan!
    Edmund raises a good point, which is that catechesis is falling off, but I think it's kind of strange to think that has to be fixed by turning undergraduate theology into an RCIA program or a grad school.

  410. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:45:00 with 7 likes

    Shortly after leaving TAC I took a senior elective at a local seminary on Thomistic Ethics. I was actually surprised at how good the prep at TAC was for something like that, and I could hold my own with guys who had already been through 3-4 years of training for the priesthood.

  411. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-18T19:46:00 with 7 likes

    I can't say I ever reached a point in my Theology MA where I was totally out of my TAC comfort zone as far as understanding the ideas at hand.

  412. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:48:00 with 1 likes

    If nothing else, it gives you a great prep just for grasping ideas in general and putting them into a logical framework. I slid into a job in journalism and it was great to be able to detect all the sophistry under the rocks

  413. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:49:00 with 3 likes

    I'm really starting to enjoy Peregrine's off base, left-field, wack-ass (for lack of a better term) critiques. Set up something no one is saying, attack it violently, then repeat. and repeat. aaaaaand repeat.
    "The sign out front says if I don't like it it's free. I don't like it"
    "there's no such sig-"
    "I said I don't like it, it should be free"
    "but there's no-"
    "but the sign says free"
    this could work for me in "real" life

  414. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-18T19:50:00 with 0 likes

    You are crazed and drunken sports fans, cheering for a particular team. You call your team the greatest. Then you mistake your team for the sport itself.

  415. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:51:00 with 5 likes

    nah, not much of a sports fan, really

  416. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:51:00 with 6 likes

    sec let me get my cheerleading outfit

  417. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:52:00 with 9 likes

    make sure it is dress-code approved

  418. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:53:00 with 6 likes

    as far as the "sports fan" thang goes, lots of us met our spouses at TAC some of us converted and found the faith at TAC, and none of us are unchanged by that experience, for good or ill.
    That having been said, Scott, yo momma's fat

  419. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:54:00 with 1 likes

    admittedly I may have my eyes glazed over from having made a lot of lasting friendships and rediscovered my vocation there ^^

  420. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T19:57:00 with 5 likes

    420

  421. Edmund T. Dean at 2014-08-18T19:59:00 with 7 likes

    btw if you're from TAC and are reading this and you find yourself in London or thereabouts, this seminarian wants to treat you to dinner and a pint. Goodnight all

  422. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T20:03:00 with 16 likes

    Peregrine Bonaventure even has Michael Beitia defending his alma mater and has single handed lay kept this thread up this far and this long.
    Truly you deserve an award. You are no longer a troll - you have achieved the level of the - of the -something even more - the level of a comment *Dragon*.

  423. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-18T20:03:00 with 3 likes

    Yes Scott, theology is the fullness of the faith, but what is it that is "missing" of that in the curriculum at TAC? Do please tell.

  424. John Kunz at 2014-08-18T20:10:00 with 4 likes

    but it's a douchey dragon, isn't it, Matthew? not just a regular dragon...

  425. Martin G. Snigg at 2014-08-18T20:16:00 with 4 likes

    --->A Structural Reexamination of the Angelic Hierarchies for the Illumination of Man as a Cosmological Being
    --->The Cosmic Game: Angelic Causality in the Material Realm
    Thomas Quackenbush <---
    --->The Stuff That Matters: The Atom as an Element
    ^Need the above for my current work.
    Could have pasted them all but, for me, would like to read.
    “The Clerk’s Tale”: An Insufficient Account of How to Accept Trial from God
    “You Are Among Marvels That You Do Not Understand”: An Investigation into the Parallel Between the Character of Orual and the Land of Glome

  426. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-18T20:18:00 with 22 likes

    Premise 1: A Catholic college should teach the fulness of the faith; Premise 2: the fulness of the faith can't fit into an undergraduate curriculum; Conclusion: No college is Catholic.

  427. Dominique Martin at 2014-08-18T20:24:00 with 3 likes

    Nice try, Joe. But that makes way too much sense for Mr. Boneventure to accept as truth.

  428. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-18T20:24:00 with 4 likes

    "TAC clearly produces arrogant goats..." I'd like to address this frankly childish, almost fart-like emittance from Peregrine.
    Your unjust appellation of this particular graduate of TAC might well be correct, Mr. Bonaventure. But in my case, it's an accident of birth. You, sir, are clearly a self-made man.

  429. Maximilian Nightingale at 2014-08-18T20:25:00 with 7 likes

    I can't believe I just spent the last [...] minutes catching up on this thread.

  430. John Kunz at 2014-08-18T20:26:00 with 7 likes

    And let's be fair mr Benedict. It's a goatSTAG!!! C'mon people.

  431. Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-18T20:30:00 with 3 likes

    Weiss Joe: the fulness of the faith can't fit into any curriculum.

  432. Maximilian Nightingale at 2014-08-18T20:34:00 with 4 likes

    The whole "teaching the whole of theology" thing reminds me of a quote from Ephesians 1 that the Church prays in the Liturgy each week:
    "God has given us the wisdom to understand fully the mystery, the plan he was pleased to decree in Christ."
    FULLY! Any thoughts on what this means? Someone actually asked me about this the last time I was at TAC. Great question.

  433. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-18T20:34:00 with 16 likes

    As a dog returneth to its vomit, so a Facebooker returneth to this thread.

  434. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T20:45:00 with 1 likes

    oh, Matthew, I've never defended TAC period. nor will I. I just attack Scott.
    His momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house

  435. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T20:51:00 with 3 likes

    and you didn't have to jump straight to "dragon", Peterson, wikipedia is instructive. I think maybe "slime-troll"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
    Troll (Dungeons & Dragons) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org
    While trolls can be found throughout folklores worldwide, the D&D troll has litt...See More

  436. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-18T20:56:00 with 13 likes

    I got my MA in Theology/Catechetics at FUS. When I met with the department chair, although on paper I "needed" about 7 pre-requisites to enter the program, he said that since I went to TAC he was waiving the pre-requisites. And I pulled off a Summa Cum Laude. (While mother of 6 children...). I now work as Theology Dept. Chair at an Archdiocesan pre-k through 12. All that to say TAC was lousy preparation....

  437. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-18T20:57:00 with 2 likes

    Wow! That's awesome!

  438. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-18T21:00:00 with 1 likes

    It really was a great preparation!

  439. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-18T21:13:00 with 7 likes

    Andrews Max Summe, clearly PeregrineScottWhatshisname asked TAC to the prom and was turned down.

  440. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-18T21:24:00 with 0 likes

    lastly, Peterson (for now) we need video of S C T A C 400

  441. Ryan Burke at 2014-08-18T23:04:00 with 5 likes

    Peregrine is not passing the Turing Test. It's clearly some kind of performance art.

  442. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-19T00:07:00 with 4 likes

    whaaaaaaat is going on here

  443. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T00:12:00 with 2 likes

    "If a man cannot cross a river on its own terms,
    Then he doesn't deserve the other side."

  444. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-19T00:13:00 with 2 likes

    444 w00t!

  445. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T08:43:00 with 0 likes

    Well, my gnosis tells me 496 is a perfect number. Maybe someone should aim for that

  446. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-19T10:39:00 with 2 likes

    Christendom has produced some great senior theses too. For example Dane Joseph Weber on intellectual property: http://dane.weber.org/concept/thesis.html

  447. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-19T10:42:00 with 2 likes

    I will always be grateful to Peregrine for inspiring this discussion:
    http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/
    Unwritten Tradition
    sancrucensis.wordpress.com
    Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture...See More

  448. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T10:52:00 with 2 likes

    I still think, as I said then, that the response that Peregrine Bonaventure always brings forth is a sign that his complaints sometimes hit close to nerves or some unclear areas for many and are not mere trolling.

  449. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T11:32:00 with 3 likes

    If someone has a pen name, that is fair. Certainly, no more robust discussion on Faith and philosophy occurs than among the TAC family. I'm just saying, we need to examine our faith and theology. Not to question it endlessly, but to rely on it, so it does what it's supposed to do; so it perfects our reason and nature, and leads us to goodness and devotion. A strongly-worded criticism is not malicious. A strong defense will stand on its own and place things in better focus. Assent to the sacred truths of the Faith, in its entirety, is an act of the heart and the intellect -- and is a valid starting point for theological inquiry. The Liberal Arts were intended to support this inquiry.

  450. Shannon Maguire at 2014-08-19T11:38:00 with 5 likes

    I stumbled across this thread last night just before I went to bed. It accounted for my crazy dream of returning to campus and going class with Mr. Berquist (may he RIP), where the opening prayer had been changed. I've heard TAC accused of many things--producing arrogant graduates, focusing too much on Aristotle, not incorporating this or that great work--but I've never heard it called unCatholic.

  451. Luke Halpin at 2014-08-19T12:00:00 with 4 likes

    No comment

  452. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T12:22:00 with 0 likes

    What is "unCatholic"? Does that mean you have a kind of theology that does not correspond with Catholic truth? There are many different truly Catholic theologians, and there are different theological approaches, but they all have one thing in common: they begin with an assent to the sacred truths which have been revealed and supported by the Catholic Church. They begin with the human being giving assent to these truths. They do not begin with another set of truths that the human being has reasoned to.

  453. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:52:00 with 1 likes

    exactly, and we all know that St. Thomas when discussing the Holy Trinity, actually reasons to it from human understanding, and the articles are not explicating a mystery of the faith, nor a dogma, but rather proving that God is necessarily a Trinity from math and stuff.

  454. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:53:00 with 1 likes

    that's nothing compared to how he proves that sacraments exist from historical necessity.

  455. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T12:54:00 with 2 likes

    and that's how I studied - like a good Marxist unraveling the historical truths that dialectically appear through the seminar method

  456. Adrw Lng at 2014-08-19T12:59:00 with 8 likes

    The gentleman: "If he engages in controversy of any kind, his disciplined intellect preserves him from the blundering discourtesy of better, perhaps, but less educated minds; who, like blunt weapons, tear and hack instead of cutting clean, who mistake the point in argument, waste their strength on trifles, misconceive their adversary, and leave the question more involved than they find it. He may be right or wrong in his opinion, but he is too clear-headed to be unjust; he is as simple as he is forcible, and as brief as he is decisive. Nowhere shall we find greater candor, consideration, indulgence: he throws himself into the minds of his opponents, he accounts for their mistakes."

  457. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-19T13:04:00 with 2 likes

    Are we discussing the way in which we study Thomas, or the fact that we study Aristotle alongside Thomas? (And for certain subjects like logic, natural science, ethics, before him?) why on earth am i even typing this, i have no idea. Need to take up knitting again...

  458. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:22:00 with 0 likes

    So, TAC does not begin theology with assent to sacred truths. Though it may recognise that St. Thomas himself has taught that sacred theology begins with assent to divine revelation and the sacred teachings of the Holy Catholic Faith, though it states in its Charter than liberal education is finally subject the teaching Church, in the course of its curriculum, it does not teach or present theology in this way. But in another way...

  459. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:24:00 with 0 likes

    It begins in an entirely different way. It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons. It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason. This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology. TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.

  460. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T15:28:00 with 0 likes

    Mr. Beitia, Thomas is NOT reasoning toward the Holy Trinity. He gives intellectual assent to revealed and sacred truth, then supports that faith with reasonable dialectic. It is assent to faith seeking and achieving understanding. It is not a reasoning in the metaphysical sense.

  461. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-19T15:38:00 with 1 likes

    And Scripture. . . But maybe that's to Protestant of a beginning?

  462. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T15:49:00 with 0 likes

    ubi est Peregrinus. Omnia argumenta eius deleta videntur. Certamen cum umbra. Laudandi qui umbras suas vicerunt. Thomas ne erubesceat

  463. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T15:51:00 with 0 likes

    really Scott? I had no idea

  464. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T15:52:00 with 3 likes

    BINGO: you spelled my name right!
    Give him a hand, folks, he can be taught

  465. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:06:00 with 0 likes

    ok. is it safe to understand mr p-bon, that you attended TAC? I only say that as I think it says something to that effect on your book of faces profile. now... the way that the program is built studies things in a historical narrative (more or less). however, it is an integrated historical narrative. the program does not study JUST logic, and THEN syllogism, and THEN philosophy (just listing what you wrote above - more or less), and THEN some natural theology a la greeks.

  466. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T16:07:00 with 0 likes

    Kunz - he's a Christendom guy, I think.

  467. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:07:00 with 2 likes

    (still writing - just hit enter by mistake - in my humility, I just said that I made a mistake)

  468. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T16:08:00 with 6 likes

    Also I love that P-B is apparently immune to sarcasm, as he completely missed Beitia's.

  469. Becca Cupo at 2014-08-19T16:12:00 with 4 likes

    I just adore this thread.

  470. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:28:00 with 5 likes

    HOWEVER!!! (and yes, I know that this argument/discussion is fruitless – but what the hell).
    We study these things in order, to give a proper context to what comes (came) next, in both the progression of thought, but also progression of what formed the thought.
    That is why the programs are actually integrated, not just among the other subjects, but in themselves.
    So, it seems like a fairly logical thing to study theology in the following manner:
    1) Sacred Scripture
    2) St. Augustine (first explaining how to further understand it, and then an understanding of how Sacred Scripture exists in the world, thought, etc).
    3) The Prima Pars (Summa) – the treatise on God, then the treatise on the sacraments, etc. (yes – this was written by St. Thomas Aquinas).
    a. Incidentally, this is studied as it is the basis (according to the Vatican, anyways) for most of the Church(sorry, Magisterium)’s understanding of God, Sacred Theology, etc., etc.,
    4) Then we study the Constitution of the Church, certain encyclicals (issued by the Magisterium, if you will) to understand various aspects of not only Theology, but also Catholic Social Thought.
    I say that is seems fairly logical to study in that manner, because that is the same manner in which God's Divinely Revealed Truth has become understood to man over the centuries... Why start with the end of the book and not meet the plot, characters, twists, etc? Knowing only the way that Don Quixote's ends, without knowing how he actually got there, and the WAY that he got there would be fruitless.
    But the brilliance of the integration here, is the fact that one cannot properly understand the words, terms, phrases or dare I say, SENTENCES and paragraphs in most of what St. Thomas wrote, OR St. Augustine OR Any of the other notions then studied through encyclicals, etc., if one has not first studied those that they refer to, quote and lean on to make their mark. That is to say, if one just starts straight in on the summa with a hope to one day read St. John of the Cross (make up some other example here please), one does not have any further respect, knowledge NOR understanding of either Carmelite Mysticism, NOR the Catholic Faith (nor the magisterium – just to be fair). THAT IS BECAUSE very simply, very few people are smart enough to just read the Summa and understand its meaning, let alone its nuance.
    So, do students at TAC study logic and natural theology? Absofreakinlutely. Is that because the Blue Book says so? Nope. Is that because the founders think that we can reason our way to understanding God alone without the light of faith? Nope. It’s because in order to not only appreciate STA, but also have any chance of grasping straws, one must understand his vernacular, and in a certain sense – study the same way that he did.
    So is logic an important part of the curriculum? So much so that it pervades almost every freshman class? It sure is! Is Aristotle that important too? Not because it’s Aristotle. It’s important because that is what follows from an understanding of Western Philosophy (I doubt they study Aristotle in the same way at St. John’s when discussing the Great Books of Eastern Thought). However, in order to give the best picture in a short period of time (4 years), there must be some tie between it all. Therefore: Pre-Socratics Socrates/Plato Aristotle Modernity Post-Modernity. Are you seeing the trend here? It’s the same in Math… Euclid Ptolemy Copernicus Kepler Descartes Leibnitz Newton Non-Euclidian Einstein (I missed some and integrated others). This studies the formation of the problem. And it leads to a full (as full) understanding of the stuff.
    So – to add the last thoughts based on your (Current) last post.
    “It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons.”
    A) Covered, but I know that you see the error in complaining about this anyways, as of course you know, We learn by moving to the more known to us, to the less known and thereby towards that more known in itself. So, this makes sense.
    "It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason."
    A) No. This isn’t how the study of Theology, nor principles of theology are studied. This is how PHILOSOPHY is studied – in order to better understand theology? Yep! But not THE study of Theology.
    “This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology.”
    A) Nope. Natural Theology? Yep. SACRED? Nope.
    “TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.”
    A) AGAIN – not sure where this idea is coming from… but I think that my first paragraph deals with this as well.
    But don’t take my word for it.

  471. Marina Shea at 2014-08-19T16:43:00 with 0 likes

    Mr Peregrine, two questions. What is the ideal of a university as such? 2) is a Catholic university different in kind from a university simply?

  472. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T16:58:00 with 2 likes

    You're welcome (show off)

  473. John Hall at 2014-08-19T17:08:00 with 1 likes

    http://youtu.be/BNyDjkPO8l0
    Play Video
    Wha' Happen??
    Hey, Wha Happen??

  474. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T17:54:00 with 0 likes

    QUAESTIONEM unam propono: BOVEM MUTUM hanc lineam commendare arbitraminine?

  475. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T19:06:00 with 2 likes

    You know, one of the first lessons I teach any students learning history with me is to avoid the mistake of assuming that at any given historical period people all thought the same thing. Being quick to judge, and naturally tending toward it, young students like very much to say things like "Well that's just what they all thought back then." Jonathan Scott Weinberg, or the so-called Bonaventure, appears from his profile picture to be substantially older than high school or middle school students. But that don't seem to matter.
    Mr. Weinberg, even if your tenuous claim that TAC purports to approach sacred theology in some specific unprecedented way holds any water whatsoever, it does not follow that therefore all graduates of TAC also approach it that way, or that we all emerge inevitably brainwashed by the college's approach.
    In other words, Bonaventure - I'm trying very hard to see things from your point of view, I really am. Unfortunately, I can't stick my head that far up my own ass. Maybe you can teach me how to do that, too?

  476. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T19:52:00 with 3 likes

    John - just because you aren't getting many responses to your Latin statements doesn't mean that we don't understand them...

  477. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T19:53:00 with 4 likes

    Excuse me? Have we met? How the hell can you justify calling all of us arrogant? I expect it from PB, because he's a troll and we've been over and over this twenty times, and I didn't read your Latin because it struck me as pretentious (and as a canonist in training, it's not because I don't read Latin) - who the hell are you to be so bigoted toward everyone here?

  478. John Kunz at 2014-08-19T19:54:00 with 1 likes

    And to be fair... Knowing oneself to be correct in all instances, and stating that to be the case doesn't make one arrogant. It just makes them correct. Always and in all ways.

  479. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T19:59:00 with 3 likes

    Also, I don't think I studied Theology wrong, and I'm willing to bet my MA in Philosophy and my MA in Theology on that. Are you going to tell me where I screwed up? Because if you want to tell me the failures in my own education, you'd best be damn well ready to back it up with chapter and verse. Failing to do this means you are guilty of calumny.
    Take your time, rear yourself up like a man and make your case - I know the documents of the Church well enough that I am untroubled by any ideas you might have gotten into your head.

  480. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:01:00 with 0 likes

    Ruplinger, I've seen your intelligent comments on my Dad's posts. I thought you were better than this. Who the hell do you think you are? I see you "studied porters and imperial stout at University of Dallas." Did you really just join Bonaventure in referring to the entirety of TAC graduates as arrogant bastards? Answer me this, you troglodyte - was it hard work becoming such an illiterate boor?

  481. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:04:00 with 0 likes

    Tom - I think it might be a good idea for Ruplinger to learn how to punctuate and capitalize before he tackles your theology education.

  482. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:04:00 with 0 likes

    Whoa there. He might not be illiterate (though he seems to be acting boorish, I grant you) - and certainly there is something trollish in the way he just accused us - I want to hear his case. Really, I do. I want to hear it out in the open, where such accusations among Christians ought to be exposed to sunlight, and I want to watch him try and make his case, because, on the distant chance he is right, he can prove it like a man - and if he is wrong, he can accept censure for insulting an entire school of people.

  483. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 1 likes

    He's not off to a very good start.

  484. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 0 likes

    Also, I'd really love to hear in what way I am "impotable." I hadn't realized that you could use that to describe someone, it usually referring to whether water is drinkable, and on the off chance it is literary genius instead of the more likely imbecilic nattering, I'd like to know what it means.

  485. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:06:00 with 5 likes

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/PB6sH3RwGYA?autoplay=1
    Play Video
    The Great Muppet Caper, Say cheese!
    The end of the song "Happiness Hotel" from The Great Muppet Caper. Gonzo takes a picture and Sam the Eagle says his best line ever.

  486. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:07:00 with 1 likes

    Tom - I think he intends it to mean "unbearable."

  487. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:08:00 with 0 likes

    Dude, that's like...one letter too long and way too many letters different. How do you get from A to B on that one?

  488. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:09:00 with 0 likes

    Matthew - granted. Quite granted. Doesn't mean some people around here don't need an expert surgeon in head-from-ass removal.

  489. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:10:00 with 0 likes

    He means we are unbearable to be around or converse with, just as muddy, stagnant water is impotable. That's my best guess.

  490. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:12:00 with 0 likes

    In other words, he can't stomach us.

  491. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:16:00 with 3 likes

    Anyways, I assume that his criticism that our "tone" indicates that we don't get Theology right is because we have a sense of poise and dignity about our education, rather than treating our degrees as worthless pieces of paper that can be used as Latin-themed toilet rags in emergencies. I suppose, given the kind of paradigm that thinks being anything but passive on the matter is the Devil's work, he would rather we spent all our time talking about social issues and never discussing Aquinas. We would all be perfect souls of courtesy. You know, like St. Jerome "the Thunderer."
    "As to your inquiry whether I have written in opposition to the books of Annianus, this pretended deacon of Celedæ, who is amply provided for in order that he may furnish frivolous accounts of the blasphemies of others, know that I received these books...I have suffered so much...that I almost thought of passing over these writings with silent contempt. For he flounders from beginning to end in the same mud, and, with the exception of some jingling phrases which are not original, says nothing he had not said before. Nevertheless, I have gained much in the fact, that in attempting to answer my letter he has declared his opinions with less reserve, and has published to all men his blasphemies; for every error which he disowned in the wretched synod of Diospolis he in this treatise openly avows. It is indeed no great thing to answer his superlatively silly puerilities, but if the Lord spare me, and I have a sufficient staff of amanuenses, I will in a few brief lucubrations answer him, not to refute a defunct heresy, but to silence his ignorance and blasphemy by arguments: and this your Holiness could do better than I, as you would relieve me from the necessity of praising my own works in writing to the heretic."

  492. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:17:00 with 1 likes

    THE ST. JEROME SMACKDOWN!! OHHHHH SNAP

  493. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-19T20:24:00 with 1 likes

    QED (BTW there is a potable arrogant bastard.) Anywho, I just read like hundreds of posts ripping on a certain Peregrinne B. but couldn't find a single post by him. Just trying to clarify. Regarding the theology, I take for a model both the Jesuit tradition and Leo XIII's suggested order of studies. Your own is considerably different. I also question how its done. That is all. Regarding superbia, it's just something I suspect in how open you are to criticism. I was being tongue in cheek mostly, but hey, what do I know. (edit: to be clear I refer to the Ratio Studiorum esp. as explained by Fr. Hughes)

  494. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:23:00 with 1 likes

    I think there's plenty of cheek to go around in these parts...

  495. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:24:00 with 7 likes

    The real question is: is this comment thread a sin I must confess as soon as I am able?

  496. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T20:25:00 with 3 likes

    But all I did was point to the one interlectual thing I like about my alma mater...

  497. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-19T20:25:00 with 5 likes

    Matthew, this comment thread is building you mansions in Heaven.

  498. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:26:00 with 3 likes

    And if you die tomorrow and become a saint, will this thread stand as some kind of fourth-class digital relic of you, Matthew?

  499. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T20:26:00 with 4 likes

    I am a great fan of the potable Arrogant Bastard. I am also a fan of the classical order of studies - I especially like how Leo got it from Aquinas, and how ours doesn't begin with Metaphysics and end in the Scriptures, such that all of it is accepted purely based on "my teacher told me so." I am open to criticism, believe it or not - I am not so open to these usual Ex Corde Ecclesiae school genital-waving contests which seem to be everyone's favorite occupation.
    Since I presume your accusations are not actually based in reality or knowing me at all, I'm just going to assume you won't defend them, in which case I hope you are willing to offer an apology. I don't take kindly to "I'm just gonna be an uncontrolled flapping mouth at your school, since, you know, if it's on the internet nobody can tell me what is rude." I believe that my school deserves an apology when people say ignorant stuff about it.

  500. Aaron Gigliotti at 2014-08-19T20:27:00 with 2 likes

    "Creator of five day long comment threads . . . Pray for us."

  501. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:28:00 with 1 likes

    Ruplinger and Bonaventure both seem to hold degrees from the same school of evasion, Tom. I don't think an apology is forthcoming.

  502. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:28:00 with 2 likes

    Tom, you should quote Jerome in Latin, otherwise the relevant parties might not understand it.

  503. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:29:00 with 1 likes

    If Mr. Bonaventure is really Mr. Weinberg, I believe he was asked to leave TAC by Mr. Kaiser at some point in his freshman year. (Or at least, Scott Weinberg related some such anecdote to me back in the day.)

  504. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:32:00 with 0 likes

    Ruplinger has no idea what hurricane he has just provoked.

  505. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:35:00 with 3 likes

    Facebook's privacy settings can do that to conversations. Especially if the person in question has blocked you at some point: then neither you nor he will be able to see each other's comments.

  506. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:35:00 with 0 likes

    "...i suspect part of his complaint which i sympathize with: 1) youre all impotable arrogant bastards 2) you dont study theology right. BY your own admissions even and tone, he is right." Would you care to explain how we have so grievously misunderstood you, sir?

  507. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:37:00 with 3 likes

    The short story is that someone showed up awhile ago and started criticizing TAC's curriculum and evading any attempt to reach common ground. Since then, many of us have, rightly or wrongly. decided that argument with this person is fruitless and have begun responding in kind.

  508. John Ashman at 2014-08-19T20:37:00 with 0 likes

    I pray for their job prosoects.

  509. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:39:00 with 3 likes

    I think very few TACers would claim that TAC's curriculum is perfect for every possible end, (in fact, I gather that several people in this thread are quite critical of TAC most of the time) we just like criticism to come from someone who is willing to actually talk to us rather than at us.

  510. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:42:00 with 3 likes

    I'd never say I'm not arrogant. I reject the idea that I'm somehow arrogant because I attended Thomas Aquinas College.

  511. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:43:00 with 1 likes

    Perhaps you were not deliberately provocative in that other conversation.

  512. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:45:00 with 2 likes

    Also - 524.

  513. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:45:00 with 1 likes

    .525x10^3

  514. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:47:00 with 1 likes

    I think that is a problem, although there is a corresponding problem with lectures: excessive passivity to the ideas of others.

  515. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:48:00 with 0 likes

    Quite.

  516. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:52:00 with 1 likes

    I don't know the Jesuit method, perhaps a description would be helpful. I do know that the "Scholastic" method balanced lectures (lectiones) with something similar to a seminar (i.e. the disputationes). Obviously the format of the latter differed insofar as it concluded with an authority pronouncing judgment on the positions held by his students: but something like that happens in the better seminars at TAC.

  517. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:52:00 with 0 likes

    Can't hear you with your mouth full like that, John

  518. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T20:53:00 with 0 likes

    I'll take a good Stone Brewing Company IPA, if you please.

  519. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T20:59:00 with 1 likes

    Pistols at dawn, Ruplinger. Your day has come.

  520. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T21:01:00 with 0 likes

    Scintilating discussion. It's no surprise the TAC family of scholars pursues the question what is theology. No one else is doing this today. You need very strong reasoning skills to pursue this question today. Faith -- which is love engulfed in the substance of things hoped for -- seeking understanding.

  521. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:01:00 with 2 likes

    Hey, Peregrine, we read the dude that invented that phrase, we'll all about it.

  522. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 0 likes

    Put a sock in it, Bonaventure.

  523. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 3 likes

    In fact, Dr. MacArthur and co. basically never stopped repeating that phrase.

  524. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-19T21:02:00 with 0 likes

    Thanks, I love you guys.

  525. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-19T21:04:00 with 1 likes

    FYI John - this is the type of comment that you cannot see which these gentlemen were responding to:
    Peregrine Bonaventure The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive.
    I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.
    August 15 at 8:29am
    There are plenty more where that came from.

  526. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:07:00 with 0 likes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBPy4tvlCwc
    You Displease Me
    You displease me greatly and I ignore the both of you.

  527. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:15:00 with 4 likes

    It's real great that just for going to a serious Catholic school, I get to have a HEADMASTER OF A CATHOLIC SCHOOL CALL EVERYONE LIKE ME ARROGANT IN PUBLIC. I'm sure Trinity, Ambrose, and JPII all are real proud of you, John. You really do them proud when you insult people on Facebook for no reason. It's a real credit to the education.
    JUST KIDDING HA HA HA IT'S JUST A JOKE, TONGUE IN CHEEK YOU GUYS

  528. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:17:00 with 0 likes

    This guy is the headmaster of a school? I'm shocked, shocked.

  529. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:25:00 with 1 likes

    Tom, I don't think that's necessary: John seemed to have missed the context of our snips at Peregrine.

  530. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:28:00 with 1 likes

    So what if he missed it? It doesn't justify anything that he came in without context when he just said bad stuff about our entire school.

  531. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-19T21:29:00 with 0 likes

    Ed - he admitted himself he was being "merely provocative."

  532. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-19T21:30:00 with 0 likes

    I mean, yeah, I could come into a heated argument where people are being all defensive about being white and saying retaliatory stuff against an Indian guy - it wouldn't justify me canning all white people. Screw that circumstantial nonsense; if you say horrible nonsense about me, my friends and colleagues, we deserve an apology for such a stupid "joke."

  533. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-19T21:40:00 with 5 likes

    http://vimeo.com/m/37683622
    Rainy Day Women No. 12 & 35
    Well, they’ll stone ya when you’re trying to be so good They’ll stone ya just a-like they said they would They’ll stone ya when you’re tryin’ to go home Then…

  534. Max Summe at 2014-08-19T21:43:00 with 4 likes

    I appreciate that this thread gets a soundtrack from time to time....

  535. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T21:44:00 with 2 likes

    Heated discussion? ha. this is all twaddle. Scottegrine Bonaweinberg sets up a straw man, beats a drum and the TAC interblagactivists get all up in a tizzy. Its laughable, stupid and pointless.
    I prod I prod I prod because it entertains. I need not justify my basic education to anyone, least of all a pseudonymous troll.
    In the words of Bender Bending Rodriguez: Bite my shiny metal ass

  536. Max Summe at 2014-08-19T21:45:00 with 4 likes

    Futurama references are always appropriate at all times.

  537. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T21:46:00 with 5 likes

    ^do you have magisterial evidence?^

  538. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T21:53:00 with 4 likes

    "Si aliqui audet dicere quod referentia ad futuramam sint aliquando non conveniens, anathema sit" -- (Council of Liberfaciei, 2008, canon xviii)

  539. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-19T22:10:00 with 2 likes

    And I thought that his couldn't escalate anymore than it already had. . . (By the way discussion is a great way to find out you're wrong too! Throwing out thoughts at 17 other individuals who all read the same things doesn't make everyone agree! We don't just nod and continue on our way. I think I learned a lot of humility through Socratic dialogue. Entering a class being absolutely certain and leaving it being dazed and confused and seeking more answers isn't easy!)

  540. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:12:00 with 0 likes

    I think we should periodically resurrect this thread, just because.

  541. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T22:14:00 with 3 likes

    the next perfect number is 8128.... good luck

  542. Shannon Maguire at 2014-08-19T22:28:00 with 5 likes

    I agree with Isak Benedict and Lauren Ogrodnick above--my personal vice of arrogance has little to do with where I did my undergraduate degree. I am very proud of having made it through TAC, and I am still exceedingly happy that such a place exists. I am also proud of what has happened in my life since then.
    I didn't read everything in the curriculum, I didn't understand everything that I did read, and I didn't participate as much as I should have in every class, because frankly, I didn't have a brilliant mind to match many of my classmates'. If anything, I was humbled by attending TAC.
    It's really irritating when some people paint all "TAC"ers with one brush, as if each person gets stamped with the same personality upon graduation, and any differences or growth beyond the degree are irrelevant. I dated one of these people for a short time--quite awkward, I must say.

  543. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:41:00 with 5 likes

    You keep talking, but you don't seem to understand what you say.

  544. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T22:47:00 with 3 likes

    Would you sketch out the principle texts you would use for a four year college curriculum that intends to teach theology? In what order would you present those texts?

  545. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:05:00 with 1 likes

    Ok, be specific: would Freshman theology involve reading the Bible? what additional texts would you add? The Catechism? Dei Verbum?
    If you really want a defense of TAC's curriculum, a communication of your view of a good curriculum might help us see what common ground there is to start from.

  546. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:06:00 with 1 likes

    Are you saying that freshman year would not involve studying anything besides theology?

  547. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:18:00 with 7 likes

    I think what the founders of TAC thought was that a strong foundation in logic and philosophy would help students of theology see the line dividing Faith and reason. Furthermore, it would help theologians begin to understand the faith (remember, "fides quaerens intellectum") by giving them places from which they can both defend the articles of the Faith against objections and show the harmony of the deposit of faith with the truths discoverable by natural reason.

  548. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:20:00 with 4 likes

    Part of the questiop, then, would be should theology (as opposed to catechesis) begin with the articles of faith or should it begin with the preambles and progress to the articles, as St. Thomas does in the Summa.
    None of this is to deny that the articles of Faith are the first principles of Sacred Theology. Sometimes, however, what is first "by nature" (to use a technical phrase) is not first in the pedagogical order.

  549. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:29:00 with 3 likes

    Mr. Berquist explicitly denied that TAC was a great books school.

  550. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:33:00 with 4 likes

    The curriculum of TAC is designed to provide the various aids one needs to fruitfully begin to study theology: the reason more "Sacred Theology" is taught at TAC is probably that "the Founders" judged that most college-age students weren't ready for a formal study of theology.
    After all, in the medieval schools, Sacred Theology was studied after a long, rigorous curriculum of philosophy.

  551. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:35:00 with 2 likes

    I've never implied that the articles of Faith were all contained by St. Thomas: after all some of them (such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption) were only recognized as such long after St. Thomas died.

  552. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:38:00 with 2 likes

    "Catechesis is something entirely different" That's exactly what I was saying: should the study of the science of Theology begin with rote memorization of the articles of the Faith, or with the philosophical precursors to such a study?

  553. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:38:00 with 2 likes

    "Well, it is a Great Books school. It says it is, and it reads James. It is what it is. If it is not a Great Books school, it does not teach sacred theology either."
    Mr. Berquist is on record denying that TAC is a great books school.

  554. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:45:00 with 4 likes

    Sure, but should neophytes begin by studying the Immaculate Conception?

  555. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:45:00 with 1 likes

    Should theology be taught by telling the students: "Go study whichever article of Faith happens to pique your interest?"

  556. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-19T23:46:00 with 5 likes

    Dude, Edward, why?
    Perescott is just a beating drum

  557. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:48:00 with 2 likes

    I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes. Also, I'm trying to distract myself from writing a master's thesis.

  558. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:50:00 with 1 likes

    To prepare them to study theology, perhaps?

  559. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:55:00 with 3 likes

    I'm still curious what "studying theology" would look like. Presumably, it doesn't match what I did while reading St. Thomas on the Trinity and the Sacraments in class.

  560. Edward Langley at 2014-08-19T23:56:00 with 1 likes

    How should I go about studying the Trinity? Read the relevant encyclicals and council documents?

  561. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-20T00:00:00 with 2 likes

    Mr. Berquist. (Marcus) Not Dr. Berquist.

  562. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:02:00 with 4 likes

    "You both seem incapable of arguing about this subject like mature thinkers. I am not beating a drum. I am making true statements about Catholic education and sacred theology, and pursuing a line of argumentation in support of these true statements, which you are unable to address."
    Peregrine, perhaps you are stating things and arguing from them: but you are not answering my questions about your understanding of the "true statements". In fact, I think a lot of what you say is true, but I either disagree with your understanding of the truth or the implications you suppose it has. If you want to argue with us and not just pontificate at us, you should answer our questions.

  563. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:02:00 with 4 likes

    And, as far as I can see, most of the misrepresentation in this thread is on your side: I have made very few statements of fact.

  564. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:15:00 with 0 likes

    Take my most recent question: If I were to study the Trinity, how should I go about it?

  565. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:20:00 with 1 likes

    If the goal of TAC is "to prepare students to study theology" then why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind? Why does it spend years studying geometry and music? Is this beautiful? Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?
    1) "Why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind?"
    - Describe the "theological habit of mind"
    2) "Why does it spend years studying geometry and music?"
    - Because the study of geometry sharpens the logical abilities of the mind and music disposes one's passions, helping to develop the virtues necessary to fruitfully pursue the study of theology.
    3) "Is this beautiful?"
    - Not sure what the question is.
    4) "Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?" (I'm not sure what "the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity" is :))
    - see (2): Marx and Hegel promote errors which help us understand the philosophical concepts that Sacred Theology uses better.

  566. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:24:00 with 4 likes

    Edward - we did this a few months back with tutors and all - in another thread (quoted by Frater Edmund) and it gets no where. Scot (Peregrine) doesn't care to be convinced of anything. He is right and we are infidels in his mind. In fact, we are worse than infidels -- because we masquerade as Catholics.
    It is impossible to change his mind. That "debate" ended with the tutor (who is eminently kind and charitable) unfriending him. There was no other solution.
    My question is if Scott (aka Peregrine) hates TAC so much, why did he apply (and attend Freshman year in part) 3 or 4 times? He was in my class, and the class ahead of me, and another behind me and I believe in another years before. Perhaps this is an issue of rejecting that which rejected you -- it happens all the time in relationship break-ups.
    And why did the college keep letting him back in?

  567. Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:05:00 with 0 likes

    "What have I misrepresented, Edward?"
    Tell me if you understood the intent of this exchange correctly:
    "Peregrine Bonaventure It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,

  568. Edward Langley at 2014-08-18T17:21:00 with 8 likes

    Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.

  569. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:25:00 with 0 likes

    Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.
    Peregrine Bonaventure If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.
    August 18 at 5:35pm · Like"
    Did I ever say that "the first part of the Summa is the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology."? No, I responded to your claim that "TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths" by pointing out that St. Thomas (and, consequently, TAC) promotes a very different view of theology at the very heart of what TAC promotes as a good guide to the study of theology.

  570. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:26:00 with 8 likes

    It's an obsession -- and he gets some kind of kick out of it. Do what is recommended for the treatment of tantrumming children and walk away.

  571. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:28:00 with 3 likes

    Hahahaha ok. I'm actually now sorry that I spent a bit of time writing an actual response to one of these question when the above is written. As Shakespeare might have said, "thyself upon thyself".

  572. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:28:00 with 1 likes

    I love that we're around 600 comments on this thread. Was nice to see you all... But this is nothin short of a waste of time.

  573. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T00:29:00 with 1 likes

    We could have a better discussion if we just addressed one another. Not out of arrogance but out of wisdom.

  574. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T00:31:00 with 0 likes

    I studied with some of the c'dom "professors" while doing grad & post grad studies in Rome... I assumed that they were unemployable because they were able to get Jobs at Chrystendom...

  575. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:31:00 with 1 likes

    I'll give you a hint, look at Joe Zepeda's interpretation of the events:
    "Joe Zepeda Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well."

  576. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:33:00 with 4 likes

    I wish you would ask yourself "Why might a bunch of educated people not want to argue with me? Why would someone who has spent at least four years of his life arguing with people who hold all sorts of strange opinions find my attitude off-putting?"

  577. John Herreid at 2014-08-20T00:37:00 with 4 likes

    How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck graduated from TAC?

  578. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:48:00 with 5 likes

    My claim is that TAC promotes St. Thomas's (and, by the way, the Church's) understanding of the relationship between faith and reason to be true. St. Thomas very explicitly claims in ST I.1 a.8: "Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God." Consequently, TAC teaches us that "theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason." Thus (a) you misrepresented TAC's position on Sacred Theology. (b) you either misunderstood or misrepresented my reply to your accusations: I never said "the Summa is the 'source or principal set of data of sacred theology'," I merely said that "TAC promotes this view and this view contradicts your claim about TAC".
    Perhaps some TACers think that you can demonstrate the existence of the Holy Trinity: Personally, I've never met one. In my Senior theology class on the Trinity with Dr. MacArthur, Dr. MacArthur emphasized over and over again how the ground and source of St. Thomas's exposition of the Trinity (using the Doctors and Fathers of the Church as well as the acts of the Ecumenical Councils) is the assent of Faith to matters beyond reason's grasp.

  579. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:49:00 with 7 likes

    i.e. if some TACers think the Trinity is demonstrable, they didn't get that idea from TAC.

  580. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T00:50:00 with 4 likes

    TAC definitely teaches and emphasizes natural theology, BTW, but I've never heard anyone suggest that natural theology is complete.

  581. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:00:00 with 1 likes

    The wagons may be circled. But that's just Darwinian.

  582. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:17:00 with 4 likes

    "which afford more time and space for Freud and Euclid than it does for the doctors of the Church combined."
    Um, Last time I checked St. Thomas was a doctor of the Church. We spend four semesters reading St. Thomas. We spend two semesters on Euclid and two or three classes on Freud.

  583. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:19:00 with 3 likes

    We also read St. Augustine, St. Athanasius and St. John Damascene, all of whom are either Fathers or doctors of the Church: in fact, we probably spend more hours in and out of class reading St. Augustine than almost anyone else in the program.

  584. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:20:00 with 3 likes

    "In addition, it does not employ this teaching as a principle in the instruction of sacred theology, but merely as a maxim."
    Yes it does, in senior theology St. Thomas and the tutor emphasize the necessity of Faith.

  585. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:22:00 with 2 likes

    Also, when the Church gives instructions on how to study Theology, it has often said "Study St. Thomas". Perhaps more recent popes have been less explicit in this matter, but it can hardly be said that promoting Aquinas's understanding of theology is not acting in accord with the Church's wishes on the matter. Or else, if it is, perhaps you should talk to the Dominicans about how they form their novices.

  586. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:25:00 with 1 likes

    And, I'm not sure how one could read St. Augustine and think that Sacred Theology is equivalent to natural theology.

  587. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:29:00 with 0 likes

    How do you propose to teach the Faith in a way that the student absolutely cannot reject?

  588. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:29:00 with 0 likes

    It's not one of a fool.

  589. John Kunz at 2014-08-20T01:30:00 with 2 likes

    Oh - and if you read the loooooong response I wrote earlier today, it addressed most of your concerns, but you haven't responded.

  590. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:38:00 with 1 likes

    Yeah, go read that response and then tell me that TACers don't try to reason with you.

  591. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T01:42:00 with 5 likes

    It's kinda funny, when you say things like "That's a very sweet sentiment, but I would not say that constitutes a credible approach to theology. Yes, it's good that you read a few of other Doctors and theologians of the Church, in addition to Saint Thomas. But any graduate of TAC is free to reject the Faith or reject the principles of sacred theology." my study of St. Augustine causes little "Pelagian" alarm bells to start ringing.
    Do you really think that any human institution or even the Church could propose the Faith to someone in sucha way that they were no longer free to reject the Faith? Sure, if God gave them the gift of Faith, they will receive and profit from instruction; but without that gift, all instruction here below is fruitless.

  592. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T01:46:00 with 1 likes

    First my apologies for the offense given by my rather crude remarks. In my defense, however, I point out that sometime between the initial post and my first post Peregrine blocked me (I know not why) and as I knew not the properties of such action, I was mystified that upstanding gentlemen from TAC were continuing to denigrate him (since at that time it was just a beat down and not the more recent reasoned arguments). It seemed unfair to me and the seeming display of arrogance and scorn merited some redress. I hope that's understandable. You may note that I deleted most my comments. I left, however, my only question.
    Contrary to some opinion, I am very favorable to TAC though I have never met any graduates. My concerns are over the predominant method of seminar as well as the theology program (but that's a problem I likely have with any university, so it's no particular dig on TAC). Thanks to Edward, I was reminded that it is preparatory theology merely, though still the wisdom of Leo XIII's order of studies stands, which has a tradition spanning 800 years and is traceable to the Fathers of the Church. I also see the prudence of the older prescription limiting laymen in theological instruction; to put it simply they lack the evangelical councils, a necessary aid in that study which which can easily be a danger to one's own soul. Moreover, I don't regard the seminar format as suitable to such study. My own theology training was mostly unspeakably bad.
    I am familiar with the seminar method myself since it was how I had learned. I may remind all that the college's patron was not known for his verbosity under St. Albert, and also that Pieper, a Thomist, reminds us that intellectus is passive, not active. Silence is a rule of St. Benedict, but also a rule of philosophy whatever school one is from (but most evident among the Pythagoreans). Certainly disputation sharpens the mind, making it capable of receiving wisdom, but wisdom does not come from within or at least not from ourselves. A loquacious soul may be clever, but is incapable of being wise.
    My point of the Latin was merely to remind all that contemporary education falls far short of its precursors, but it is a failing in earlier years especially. By contemporary college age, back in the day, one had at least two ancient languages mastered, as well as literature, logic and preparatory philosophy (and for the Jesuits they had often begun teaching as well). TAC is necessarily limited in its aims due to this.
    I agree with Matthew's original statement that the emphasis on Aquinas and Aristotle is TAC's strongest suit. Nevertheless, it is not nor can be some rival to the schools of old, whether ancient, Renaissance, or Medieval. Taking note of one's deficiencies which in my case are great, ought to put ourselves in a bit more modest attitude.
    Finally, I do not know just how trollish Peregrine is. However, in all the vituperations at me, the sole question I asked was not acknowledged it seemed, and so I leave it.
    For those interested, I strongly recommend Fr. Thomas Hughes book on Ignatian education (ca. 1900). This is my area of expertise if I have any. It requires more than one reading and some time between and a bit of pondering too; it's interesting that the author wrote to remind the Jesuits themselves how much different their schools were even at the end of the 19th century. (The Ratio Studiorum read alone leaves one with too many questions). The Jesuits, the first teaching order, can lay claim to being the summit of Christian education. It seems superior to Erasmus' plan which is more akin the origin of our own watered down fare -- and not surprisingly because he was friends with those who established the English schools that disintegrated bit by bit over the centuries.

  593. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T01:57:00 with 4 likes

    Hint Edward (if you want to speed this up): PB (or SW) doesn't believe that the Socratic method is at all appropriate for the study of Theology because it implies that the student can wrestle with ideas or even discuss how something might be reasonable. Students are the be taught systematically using doctrinal sources only. No interpretation is permitted. (ok, go back to your argument)

  594. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T02:04:00 with 2 likes

    My question is not "are we free to reject the principles of Faith . . ." it is "can the principles of Faith be put to a student in a way that he cannot reject?"
    Perhaps you've been somewhere like that: somewhere that presents the Faith so clearly and coherently with teachers that are so holy that they can impress the virtue of Faith on the souls of their students. If so, I wish you'd tell us about that school, so we can learn their methods and reform TAC's curriculum accordingly.

  595. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T02:06:00 with 3 likes

    Peregrine Bonaventure Does Jody Haaf Garneau accurately summarise your position on teaching sacred theology?

  596. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T02:16:00 with 0 likes

    Anyways, this is my current situation, perhaps I will return tomorrow to see your responses to our questions: http://xkcd.com/386/
    xkcd: Duty Calls
    xkcd.com
    Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors).
    August 20 at 2:08am · Like · 7 · Remove Preview
    John Ruplinger Of course one must ask what is Socratic dialogue first. Do tutors lead students to aporia or invite sophists to do the same? What of the many youths who silently listen as in the Lesser Hippias in which Socrates interlocuter is embarressed. How often do the youths stay quiet? Are you familiar with Quigley and John Senior (IHS)? What do you think of the dumb ox? Did you know the Jesuits were forbidden to let students take notes or use lecture notes? Things to ponder merely.

  597. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T02:23:00 with 0 likes

    can u name a dialogue in which 2 youths are the main interlocutors?

  598. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T08:45:00 with 2 likes

    619 and still amusing.

  599. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:01:00 with 2 likes

    Edward Langley: Really? when I studied St. Thomas, we just called him "Thomas" and was instructed by the tutor to think of it as a mental exercise, like Euclid.
    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

  600. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:20:00 with 4 likes

    I wonder if Perescott Wienventure can name the seven liberal arts (hint: theology isn't one of them)? and then wonder why anyone would study music or geometry at a liberal arts school.
    I suppose his contention would be that you shouldn't study liberal arts at a liberal arts school.

  601. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T09:26:00 with 0 likes

    interesting mb. Most schools study no liberal arts. And one i know of that does produces courteous well born gentleman

  602. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:29:00 with 2 likes

    well, I'm neither well-born (how would a school produce that?) nor particularly courteous - especially with pseudonymous trolls who have been sounding the same blaring trumpet blast for years. He never answers me, but just calls me names. Like thug. On the bright side, he finally after a couple of years learned to spell my 6 letter last name

  603. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-20T09:30:00 with 2 likes

    Crazy like pineapples

  604. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:37:00 with 1 likes

    The linguistics of pineapple are Cray cray
    http://www.expolugha.tn/wp-content/uploads/pineapple.jpg
    www.expolugha.tn
    www.expolugha.tn

  605. Chris Bissex at 2014-08-20T09:41:00 with 6 likes

    It's becoming intimidating to comment on this thread, lest one accidentally make a comment that has already been made...

  606. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T09:43:00 with 3 likes

    it hasn't stopped anyone else. Plus, this thread is just a rehash of about ten others of the same stripe.

  607. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T09:56:00 with 0 likes

    i apologize for being obtuse. My questions above have two points: what is called Socratic dialogue upon inspection is not and such dialogues are often only for the benefit of the silent youths listening (or reader). Secondly there were methods of learning that are now extinct as far as i know.

  608. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:09:00 with 4 likes

    I almost responded in earnest... Edward, you set a bad example.

  609. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:31:00 with 3 likes

    I'm amused at the people that come out of the wood work the longer this goes on. Also does anyone else get the feeling that we have Dr. McArthur and Mr. Berquist laughing at us right now, or more so laughing at what they've created? Didn't they both always say that they were creating Martyrs for the Church? Haha!

  610. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:40:00 with 3 likes

    Lauren, one of the things I learned from both of them, is not to engage in a conversation when one knows that there is no real desire to listen, understand, and explain on the part of the other.
    The program of study at TAC disposes the mind to wisdom, by disposing the mind to thing reasonably. In this way, we do not reason to the faith, but we think reasonably about the faith.
    However, while we have been given this gift, the one thing we were not given was that we were not told how to use this gift. How do we use the gift of thinking reasonably in age that rejects reason? Nevertheless, all graduates are charged to defend the Church and her teachings "in season and out of season."

  611. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:41:00 with 0 likes

    I suppose the medieval universities present Faith as somethign to be reasoned towards, anyways.

  612. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:43:00 with 5 likes

    Daniel Lendman, et al. one reason I've been "setting a bad example" is to avoid misunderstandings about TACer's attitudes to the rest of the world. Especially for people who cannot see anything of the other side.

  613. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T10:43:00 with 2 likes

    I do forget that some people cannot see all the comments.

  614. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:45:00 with 1 likes

    Yeah, but it would probably be more fruitful for you to work on your Thesis Ed

  615. Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-20T10:45:00 with 7 likes

    If Dr. McArthur were here: "636 comments?!? This is all just mental..."

  616. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:46:00 with 4 likes

    "Class dismissed! All of you go spend an hour in the chapel!"

  617. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:46:00 with 2 likes

    I want to get to a thousand ....

  618. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T10:49:00 with 3 likes

    hahahahaha Perescott Wienventureburg calls the comments inane! Really!? Your assertion is still bare jackassery. I suppose starting with Holy Scripture is reasoning toward...... bah. Edward you got me started trying to respond. Never mind

  619. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T10:51:00 with 2 likes

    "No seriously, at least an hour, some of you should probably stay in there for good and get in line for confession also."

  620. Edward Langley at 2014-08-20T10:52:00 with 4 likes

    But, those medieval universities only began teaching theology after years of math, philosophy, music, etc . ..

  621. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T10:52:00 with 2 likes

    da da da da da da da

  622. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T10:55:00 with 0 likes

    but, Daniel how can you claim i do not egage in conversation if no one has responded to my questions? Be assured i am searching for the answer. Lost arts are hard to unbury.

  623. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:03:00 with 0 likes

    da da da da

  624. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:05:00 with 1 likes

    If you're not familiar with the heresies/heretics, how do you respond to them? Oops! I didn't just do that!!
    In other thoughts, I'm wondering if the extent of everyone's participation in this conversation here is an accurate representation of how they are in class. Those that come in strong and then give up (rightfully or wrongfully) and start watching the clock, those that never give up, those that try to wrap things up, those that just start throwing random comments to keep everyone friends, those that come out of the wood work as class time comes to the end etc.

  625. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:05:00 with 0 likes

    i simply asked a Socratic question: what is Socratic dialogue? If TAC doesnt know, who does? (Before responding please see my list of seeming aporeia producing questions above)

  626. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:07:00 with 2 likes

    John, there was a different comment inbetween that Michael was responding to. I think your questions are the ones being thrown to the side while they address someone else still

  627. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:10:00 with 1 likes

    Sorry Ruplinger, I don't know what Socratic dialogue is. I do know trollish jackassery, bald assertion, and inability to pick up on sarcasm..... but that's my gnosis coming out again

  628. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:15:00 with 2 likes

    and I can only stop (Edward Langley) on perfect numbers, we passed six, 28 and 496.... I cannot stop until 8128. By divine decree from the lost gnostic work of St. Thomas "De Numerologiae" we studied it in junior math

  629. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:19:00 with 5 likes

    This Peregrine moron reminds me of a much less funny, much less charismatic, and much less entertaining Ignatius J. Reilly. I don't even know where to begin, man. Some of your comments are the dumbest things I've ever read on the Internet.
    "TAC does not support reasonable discussion on sacred truths." That is a patently, observably crackpot claim.
    "But sadly, your only "argument" is that no one besides yourselves is able to understand you. You don't present an argument. You dodge and evade and attack and joke." Mr. Hercules Langley has done a fantastic job of attempting to clean the shit out of Bonaventure's stables on that count. You're really not going to find a more reasonable and kind interlocutor.

  630. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:21:00 with 1 likes

    my questions are serious, perhaps tinged somewhat ironic. Socrates was also thought a troll.

  631. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 1 likes

    but much less repetitive than our own Scoregrine Bonaburgwienture

  632. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 1 likes

    ^^^That's Ignatius J. Reilly talking. "With the collapse of the medieval system, the gods of Chaos, Lunacy and Bad Taste gained ascendancy." Is your real problem, Bonaventure Cheevy, that you long for the days of old when swords were bright and steeds were prancing?

  633. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-20T11:22:00 with 0 likes

    Again Mr. Ruplinger, he was referring to someone else.

  634. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:23:00 with 2 likes

    and dirt farmers farmed actual dirt

  635. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:27:00 with 4 likes

    "^This isn't argument, it's just contradiction"^
    "no it isn't"

  636. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T11:28:00 with 1 likes

    John, I am sorry if my comments came off as directed toward you. From what I have read of yours, you seem to be a reasonable fellow. I am sorry that you are in the middle of this whirlwind since you seem to have a serious question in mind.

  637. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T11:35:00 with 3 likes

    Isak, the colorful prose that you have put on display brought this to mind:
    I have always appreciated the diversity of minds that come to and graduate from TAC, so many different interests. That is one of the things that I really appreciate about a liberal education. No one is educated to be a master of any one discipline upon completion of a liberal education. Rather, he (hopefully) has mastered the ability to reason well. Consequently, many TAC grads go into diverse fields: Theology, Philosophy, Law, Education at all levels, Engineering, Architecture, Physics, the Medical Sciences, Performing Arts, Visual arts... the list goes on. Most importantly, TAC has fostered the religious and priestly vocations of 11% of its graduates. There is something about a liberal education that really enables the liberally minded man to excel wheresoever he feels called.

  638. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:35:00 with 1 likes

    I don't know about that, Bonaventure. You could use a little color in your stale prose yourself. Right now you're just wearing the same shirt out in public every day, and it's starting to stink. You've consistently failed to engage anyone kind enough to entertain your (much more hostile than mine) attacks on an entire school. These are attacks you are not qualified to make, having failed to succeed in the program itself.
    You have consistently failed to listen, avoided pointed questions, mocked your interlocutors, and generally behaved as a stubborn child. You have not made an argument. You have made bald claims without support and expected everyone to bow before you.
    Who do you think you are? The Pope? Think again. Your words are those of a poor demented sap.
    To everyone else - if I've offended you, I surely apologize. This is clearly a waste of time and I've simply become frustrated.

  639. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:38:00 with 4 likes

    i only see the "more" reasonable half of the whirlwind. I cant imagine the mad raving ghastly dead horse that is the other side.

  640. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:38:00 with 4 likes

    you care too much. I may have been frustrated on this same thread two years ago, but you get used to the rhythm of the Bonavenburg drum. You can even dance to it!

  641. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:39:00 with 4 likes

    John Ruplinger made the 666th comment. Does that bring good luck or bad?

  642. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:40:00 with 2 likes

    Daniel - what can I say. I think in stories and poetry and myths. Bonaventure will say that means I can't hope to approach sacred theology. I say that man is creative as God is creative, and that art can save souls. Perhaps Bonaventure is simply artless. I'm glad he has such intimate familiarity with the TRUE and PROPER ways to come to know and love the Trinity though.

  643. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:40:00 with 2 likes

    Haven't you read your "de Numerologiae"?

  644. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:41:00 with 3 likes

    I was never given the fullness of Sacred Theology. So, no.

  645. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:42:00 with 3 likes

    Here's the cover of the first appearance of Groot:

  646. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T11:46:00 with 0 likes

    "Miniver cursed the commonplace
    And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;
    He missed the mediæval grace
    Of iron clothing.
    Miniver scorned the gold he sought,
    But sore annoyed was he without it;
    Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,
    And thought about it."

  647. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T11:49:00 with 2 likes

    is my observation off base: they accuse pg of not answering questions, ad hominems, bad arguments, no arguments, etc. PG has won: he has successfully turned his interlocutors into himself.

  648. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:53:00 with 0 likes

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I just throw that stuff at him because it is amusing. Some people can't be taught. He's back to misspelling my six letter last name

  649. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T11:54:00 with 4 likes

    This thread has grown too long to be a medium of reasonable discussion. Which is why I post ridiculous things.

  650. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T11:55:00 with 6 likes

    That's a terrible strategy, Van Boom. I only post deadly serious, insightful commentary with the full authority of tradition, and magisterial teachings

  651. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:00:00 with 0 likes

    THEN STOP. feeding him, mb. It is grossly unkind. Pray for him instead. You are encouraging his unmitigatable ire. Besides he has a point he cannot articulate in his blind fury. Argue for him instead. Take his side: thus u could outmedieval him and calm his rage.

  652. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:03:00 with 0 likes

    to feed a fury is worse than be one. He is tormented. The medieval disputant would argue either side. Help your brother out. Show him what medieval really is.

  653. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:03:00 with 4 likes

    The long history of weirdness with this guy precludes that method, John. I don't defend TAC as a matter of course, nor do I think it is perfect. And frankly I don't know anyone else on this thread personally until you get back to Kunz. (Peterson excepted) so I just aim to entertain

  654. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:04:00 with 3 likes

    ...myself

  655. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:08:00 with 0 likes

    prayer is precluded at TAC? That is a good start mb. I believe pg accused tac of being noncatholic too

  656. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T12:12:00 with 14 likes

    might "Peregrine Bonaventure" be an account run by Matthew to troll the TAC alumni? PERFORMANCE ART?

  657. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:17:00 with 0 likes

    mb, let me ask. Is it the common aim of the liberal arts at tac to merely amuse oneself? while imperiling the souls of trolls. Is that what it is for? Is this Pieper's leisure? Kyrie eleison.

  658. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:17:00 with 1 likes

    Escalante! At last a familiar face!

  659. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T12:18:00 with 2 likes

    I think my theory has something to it

  660. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:19:00 with 0 likes

    John, I'm no Callicles for you questioning. I don't play the "let me ask you something" game

  661. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:25:00 with 3 likes

    Still at it? And this my friends is why there will be no online version of the TAC program any time soon. Facebook = THE worst way to have a discussion (especially with multiple participants)

  662. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T12:28:00 with 1 likes

    I have actually had many good conversation via Facebook. Yet, I am sure you are right that there will not be an online version of the TAC program.

  663. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:34:00 with 0 likes

    DO NOT IGNORE THE TROLL. Beat him pound him smash him. But to my questions, not one response and only one acknowledgement. Am i wrong to be skeptical of the boasts of TAC? It is slightly offputting. Color me disappointed.

  664. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:34:00 with 0 likes

    Do you mean your question about the classroom method John?

  665. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:37:00 with 4 likes

    I suppose, and I can't speak for anyone here, that your question seems wildly tangential to the "is TAC bad at what it claims to do" thread. Personally, I think "Socratic method" is a bad way of describing the typical TAC classroom

  666. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:37:00 with 4 likes

    There is a history with the troll. Some of us have already had a 1000 comment thread with Scott (Peregrine) with some amazing discussion (on the alumni side) and absolutely no movement on his side. In fact, he escalates. The first time I engaged with him out of charity (to find the truth; to instruct the ignorant; and to down play his publicly offensive comments -- especially about the founders) but now I just don't engage.

  667. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:38:00 with 0 likes

    ^You take the high road^
    Some of us slog through the mud

  668. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:42:00 with 1 likes

    John, let me ask you a question:
    What are the boasts of TAC?

  669. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:47:00 with 5 likes

    John Ruplinger It's such a long thread, I don't know what you assert, question, or wonder about.

  670. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:49:00 with 0 likes

    hardly tangential since it is the method claimed by tac grads and tutors. I raised both criticisms and alternatives. The lack of interested inquiry raises further concerns to the tac method vs. the Dumb Ox method which welcomed questions, considered and met objections, and took all sides like aristotle of any argument.

  671. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:50:00 with 1 likes

    >> I raised both criticisms and alternatives.<<
    How can one respond to them if he can't find them? Or easily read the context?
    That's why I say this thread is TOO LONG.

  672. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:51:00 with 1 likes

    i am sorry they are lost in the whirl of dead horse beatings.

  673. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:52:00 with 0 likes

    And the TAC method is what again?
    (edit: 700!)

  674. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T12:54:00 with 0 likes

    the boasts mb are scattered on this thread but why should i respond when tempered serious questions are ignored?

  675. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 1 likes

    No, I'm being serious, for once.
    John Ruplinger I

  676. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes

    So is this "I won't respond because you won't"?

  677. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 0 likes

    d probably agree with much of what you say. I could give you serius and reasonable replies. But the thread is too long.

  678. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-20T12:55:00 with 3 likes

    Given that the troll is absent, I am willing to participate in a real discussion.

  679. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:56:00 with 0 likes

    I was going to try to give you a serious response, but I think your question needs questioning

  680. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:56:00 with 0 likes

    John asked about the Socratic method. He asked if there are any examples of dialogues between only 2 young people. He is opposing that to the teacher crafting a discussion with one person he is drawing out the lesson with.

  681. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:57:00 with 0 likes

    I believe John was also one who put forward that learning is more passive than active (but that might have been the Ignatian education person above -- no idea of name now). The root of his question was whether or not the method used at TAC was effective (or even legit)?

  682. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:58:00 with 1 likes

    I am really confused on why John hasn't restated his own questions since you have all asked him to in various ways. But there you go. He can now say I am misrepresenting him (or not)

  683. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T12:58:00 with 0 likes

    TAC isn't the socratic method. It is more like the "dumb ox" he described above except all the scattered opinions and objections are from different sides of the table, since none of us have the wherewithal to keep it all in one mind

  684. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T12:59:00 with 0 likes

    I would also say it varies from one tutor to another (and that is more true now than when I attended in 1990's). I have heard some shocking stories about how some classrooms are run. So -- it is hard to say "TAC does this" when tutors have their own flavour.

  685. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T13:00:00 with 0 likes

    NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO ONE QUESTION (except mb). I wont say mb because if memory serves u didnt make them and i dont expect u to defend another's brag. To Jason i cannot write 700 words from a phone. My guess is it starts at post 616

  686. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:00:00 with 5 likes

    Qua! Qua! Qua!

  687. Ben Limehouse at 2014-08-20T13:04:00 with 10 likes

    ^ That's the mating call of the second semester TAC sophomore.

  688. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:07:00 with 2 likes

    TAC is neither Socratic method nor Scholastic method. It is Buchanan/Adler method, for better or for worse.

  689. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:11:00 with 9 likes

    I think John Ruplinger raises some good questions. John Senior makes a similar point in his thinly veiled polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture. Mr Berquist too, was ready to concede the faults of the seminar method, especially for theology (and indeed the theology tutorial when taught by Berquist or Neumayr was de facto a lecture). On the other hand, the seminar method is very good for certain things.

  690. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:13:00 with 2 likes

    I do think it would be much better if TAC stopped claiming to be "Socratic" anything

  691. Shannon Williams at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 5 likes

    This ought to become a singles meet and greet forum, it'd be more fruitful.

  692. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 3 likes

    But the seminar method is Socratic in the sense of "de-sedimentizing" concepts which people assume they understand when they don't. On the other hand, lead by a skilled tutor, it is an exciting way of uncovering what is implicit in what people already know, and in making distinct what they know confusedly.

  693. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:14:00 with 0 likes

    (For both of the above see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../charles-de-koninck.../)
    Charles De Koninck, Jacob Klein, and Socratic Logocentrism
    sancrucensis.wordpress.com
    The bi-lingual Quebecois journal Laval théologique et philosophique, has recently uploaded its archives to the web. This was the organ of Laval School Thomism, and the early issues contain lots of ...

  694. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:16:00 with 1 likes

    Both in philosophy and in theology learning consists largely in making distinct what one already knows confusedly; in philosophy what one knows by "common conceptions" (see blogpost linked above), and in theology what one knows by the sensus fidelium (see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/)

  695. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-20T13:17:00 with 3 likes

    That's the bell for vespers. I'm sure this thread will still be alive tomorrow, so till then.

  696. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T13:17:00 with 6 likes

    Thanks to Matthew J. Peterson's wording in the header for the thesis title slideshow, we now have a thread with a higher word count than most of those thesis papers.

  697. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T13:19:00 with 0 likes

    JA -- why do you say that about dropping Socratic? (curious)

  698. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-20T13:20:00 with 1 likes

    Sorry Pater I think that's an awfully stretched sense of "Socratic" but I won't go into it further while you are vespering and thus unable to defend yourself

  699. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-20T13:28:00 with 3 likes

    Unfollowing this thread. Good luck!

  700. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T13:32:00 with 4 likes

    Escalante is right. The closest I ever experienced to "Socratic" at TAC was me explaining props to others stuck at the board in Euclid. Other than that, it was more of discussion method, again, for better or worse, and not counting Neumayr or Berquist.

  701. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T13:33:00 with 2 likes

    It was, fondly, a little like Meno

  702. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T14:15:00 with 0 likes

    my response vanished. I will try later. Reread if u will my questions if u have time. Reconsider. I'll restate them better later. For now. Why was he called the Dumb Ox? Thanks for the the thoughtful responses.

  703. Joel HF at 2014-08-20T14:31:00 with 9 likes

    I always thought that a lot of the intra-TAC anguish about the program came from misleading advertising, as it were. People think that TAC proposes no positive teaching and that everything is left to students to discuss and decide for themselves, ala St. John's but with 4 years of "theology" tutorials. This was decidedly not my experience. At least not after the first two years.
    The classroom method itself varies from tutor to tutor and it isn't really Socratic in any sense that Socrates (or even a law professor) would recognize.
    Nor are the great books or the discussion methods the primary purpose of the school--at least not per Berquist or Neumayr. Some people bewailed this--too much Thomas, too much lecturing, not enough wonder. Personally, I was never much bothered by the fact that the school had an official (or quasi-official) doctrine.

  704. Isak Benedict at 2014-08-20T14:40:00 with 5 likes

    I'm blocking Peregrine and unfollowing this thread. Sorry for any bad impressions I gave. I speak for myself and not on behalf of TAC or all TAC graduates, although I am much more thankful for my time there now than I used to be. This "conversation," however, is mostly sound and fury - and I just remembered that I will have to answer for every idle word, as will we all.
    I wish you all the best - God bless and good luck. Keep the Faith!

  705. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:01:00 with 5 likes

    For those who are actually still interested in the Socratic method, Mr Berquist left us this explanation: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-libera.../why-socratic-method
    Why the Discussion (Socratic) Method? | Thomas Aquinas College
    www.thomasaquinas.edu
    One of the distinguishing features of Thomas Aquinas College is its Discussion Method of teaching. Though the technique is as old as Socrates, it has never been in vogue. Nor is it today. The vast majority of colleges here and abroad use the lecture method. Yet what Socrates saw in it over 2,000 yea…

  706. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:07:00 with 0 likes

    Neumayr (Sorry pedantry)

  707. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:08:00 with 3 likes

    And reading another Berquist lecture (Learning & Discipleship) he says this (which pertains to this fb discussion): "given the reputations of such lecturers {notorious dissenters and intellectual rogues}, those who attend might come expecting an intellectual brawl—them against us—and under such circumstances learning does not ordinarily take place. From disagreement, yes; from a brawl, less commonly." link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/.../Aquinas_Rev...

  708. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:09:00 with 1 likes

    Someone should compile a quotable Berquist page. It might not be as popular as a quotable Molly Gustin one but much more valuable.

  709. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:09:00 with 1 likes

    ack! That was the first TAC lecture of my freshman year! That caused a veritable poo-storm among the stiff-necked and unruly student body

  710. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:10:00 with 6 likes

    Hilarious: "Some of you, perhaps, will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your phonographs, and we regret that profoundly." (phonographs!!!??) Mr Berquist lecture

  711. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-20T15:10:00 with 0 likes

    Classic rock

  712. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T15:32:00 with 1 likes

    the first confrontation I had with the head prefect was me listening to Minor Threat as loud as the stereo would go with the door locked. fun times.

  713. Joe Zepeda at 2014-08-20T16:58:00 with 1 likes

    Margaret Grimm Blackwell this was a few hundred comments ago, but here is an online copy. https://drive.google.com/.../0B0_uLICa.../edit...
    Zepeda_Joseph_Raphael Senior Thesis.pdf - Google Drive
    docs.google.com

  714. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-20T17:27:00 with 1 likes

    Shannon you are my favorite

  715. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-20T17:50:00 with 5 likes

    For some reason I see this thread going on for so long and becoming so huge that eventually it will subsume all of the internets into itself.
    I think it may be the action of the world spirit coming to know itself.

  716. Jonathan Monnereau at 2014-08-20T18:01:00 with 4 likes

    Behold! The Leviathan!

  717. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T18:05:00 with 0 likes

    I appreciate the thoughts and consideration but i see little interest in discussion. I like TAC and all and am prone to hypercriticism. Several comments help me to understand better the situation. And hopefully the storm of post 666 is over.

  718. Sean Plus at 2014-08-20T18:06:00 with 4 likes

    Anne Schniederjan Can someone summarize this

  719. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-20T18:16:00 with 7 likes

    A lengthy demonstration of the difference between discussion, debate, and thermonuclear troll warfare.

  720. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T18:34:00 with 2 likes

    well, according to the wiki, lighting a troll on fire is the preferred method...

  721. Erik Bootsma at 2014-08-20T18:35:00 with 2 likes

    Or turn them into stone by drawing them into an argument so long that the sun comes up?

  722. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:05:00 with 1 likes

    go home Sceregritt Bonwienventureburg, you're drunk

  723. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:06:00 with 0 likes

    you misspelled "gangsta" too. you really need spell check

  724. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:09:00 with 0 likes

    hence the straw man

  725. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:14:00 with 0 likes

    more straw men. Are you a farmer? Did they make scarecrows up in Canada?

  726. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T19:18:00 with 0 likes

    we have it on the grand authority of Scottrine Wienventure that they don't. Why argue with such an august interlocutor, master of repetition, insult and bold claim?

  727. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T20:06:00 with 3 likes

    Can't do it. My tolerance for smarmy, self-satisfied, obnoxious, assume-what-you-prove, douchebaggery is limited.
    Real discussion is impossible, because things get way twisted through his pathological neurosis regarding TAC. I don't need to convince him, waste of time, but caution against anyone taking him seriously. The notion that he "just wants to know" blew out the window many threads ago

  728. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-20T20:09:00 with 4 likes

    finally realized what this thread reminded me of http://online.wsj.com/.../SB10001424127887324904004578539...
    A Different Take on Reality TV: 18 Hours of Swimming Salmon
    online.wsj.com
    Norwegians love their boring shows, from the progress of a ferry boat to a 30-hour interview.

  729. Peter Halpin at 2014-08-20T20:16:00 with 4 likes

    You all need to do something else.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs
    ANCHORMAN Brick Killed A Guy
    hahahahahahahahahaha i dont own this. But this OWNS

  730. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-20T21:34:00 with 0 likes

    I wasn't trying to illuminate the faith, o pseudonymous troll

  731. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T00:58:00 with 9 likes

    "An Exception to Godwin's Law: On the Absence of Reductio ad Hitlerum Arguments in Long and Rancorous Online Discussions of the Titles of Undergraduate Theses From Small Catholic Liberal Arts Colleges"

  732. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:03:00 with 9 likes

    So many comments, and I still think Aaron Gigliotti had the best one: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."

  733. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:04:00 with 3 likes

    JA Escalante, I agree that the meaning of "Socratic" is being a bit streched in my comment above, but not more than "Socratic" is usually streched.

  734. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:04:00 with 2 likes

    oh so *I'm* a scoffer but Mr Gigliotti isnt. I see how it is, Pater

  735. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:05:00 with 4 likes

    I do think Joel HF has a good point about how some of the SJC inspired promotional material that the college uses is slightly misleading.

  736. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:10:00 with 3 likes

    Here's how a real scoffer summarized the theology tutorial at TAC (I'm not making this up):
    «Freshman year the TACer reads the Bible and thinks "OMG this book is confusing; I'm glad I never have to read it again."
    Sophomore year he reads Augustine against the Pelagians and thinks, "OMG this is depressing! I'm probably going to Hell and can do nothing about it; I hate theology!"
    Junior year he reads the Prima Pars and thinks: "OMG! This makes so much sense!! I LOVE St Thomas!!!!! This is real theology! I'm never going to read anything except St Thomas ever again!!!! Thank you TAC for introducing me to this amazing writer! I Love my college!"» </sarcasm>

  737. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:12:00 with 0 likes

    But JA, were you thinking of something like Joel's point when you said TAC should avoid calling what it does in any way "Socratic," or did you have something else in mind?

  738. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:15:00 with 2 likes

    It's more than slightly misleading; it verges on false advertising, kind of like the non-existent horses in the old pamphlets from the 90s. But TAC itself is very confused about what it's up to. Contra the FB personage whom I still think might be Peterson in disguise, TAC most definitely teaches theology, lots of it, it just does much of that surreptitiously. Here's the thing: SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something. This certainly involves theology; except that its position as regina sc is very oddly related to the SJC method TAC imported. Too often,what one ends up with is neither fish nor fowl.

  739. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:17:00 with 2 likes

    Basically, TAC classes and method are to Catholic wisdom what the State is to the Church on the Maritain model. Checkmate, Pater

  740. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:18:00 with 0 likes

    But this is where I think my pet theory about the analogy of confused knowledge in philosophy and theology comes in.

  741. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:19:00 with 7 likes

    Say more. I think Matthew gets cash from FB if this hits 800.

  742. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:20:00 with 2 likes

    What TAC really understands itself as doing (but alas this doesn't come across in the promotional material), is peripatetic discussion. Recall that Aristotle's works were not strictly lecture notes as the many foolishly assert, but actually discussion outlines for walking around and talking.

  743. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:20:00 with 2 likes

    um why did we never stroll for class then

  744. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:21:00 with 7 likes

    Because we were co-ed and girls like to chat sitting down.

  745. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:21:00 with 11 likes

    so, TAC understands itself AS A ROSARY WALK? It all makes sense now!

  746. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:22:00 with 3 likes

    "peripatetic" ahem ahem

  747. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:24:00 with 2 likes

    but seriously...TAC half-understands what its doing as peripatetic discussion. But it also half-understands itself as teaching Catholic wisdom. It just leaves the relation of those two in practice to ad hoc improv on the part of tutors

  748. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:25:00 with 4 likes

    No but seriously: here's my theory in philosophy learning is a matter of making distinct the very certain but confused and implicit knowledge that we have of the world. Ch. 1 of the Physics and all that jazz... Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition: "Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed knowledge, a fullness which they could as little realize to themselves, as the human mind, as such, can have all its thoughts present before it at once." (Newman) So there is no opposition between paripatetic discussion and Catholic Wisdom.

  749. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:26:00 with 3 likes

    I think there are several questions you've raised. What is TAC doing? (good question) Does TAC understand what it is doing? (I kind of think who cares to this one -- except when it comes to final cause) and most importantly, Is what it is doing effective?

  750. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:29:00 with 1 likes

    "Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition" Pater Edmund
    Is that you or Newman talking? I kind of agree. Except it sounds more accurate to say seminal in place of 'confused'.

  751. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 1 likes

    But if Newman said that… I might have to just agree.

  752. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 2 likes

    JA Escalante writes "SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something." I think that is precisely the difference between socratic and peripatetic discussion. SJC is Socratic; TAC is peripatetic. So I agree that the Perpatetic Socratic amounts to false advertising.

  753. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:30:00 with 1 likes

    Jody Haaf Garneau: the "confused" part was from me; I'm OK with seminal.

  754. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:32:00 with 2 likes

    Pater, no opposition between peripatetic method and the substance of Catholic wisdom. But TAC isn't entirely peripatetic; it has time constraints and wants to get at the truth in a hurry if necessary. We've all seen this, and it's bad. It would be better and more honest to just lecture in that case. Too, TAC isn't just method; its a curriculum, and the curriculum as it stands doesn't really have theology as regina scientiarum; it sort of can't. Like I said, it's in more of a Maritainian State to Church relation.

  755. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 1 likes

    Well, theology is Regina in two senses: the other sciences are ordered to her, and she is the judge of them. I think the TAC curriculum embodies the former and towards the end gets you to see the later, but without actually embodying the later much.

  756. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 4 likes

    I think what TAC is trying to do is nearly impossible (and very heroic!) because the students are for the most part poorly prepared to receive it. So not only do they want to achieve a certain level of learning by the end, but they have to prepare the foundation in the students (or even more -- remove the impediments to learning) before proceeding. It is remarkable what they can do with a class of mostly publicly educated students in modern America in merely 4 years.
    The learning model they emulate (classical model) never had such an uphill battle to fight.
    I bristle at the accusation of the arrogance of the founders because the older I become, the more I am in awe of their humility to be willing to read and let me (and my classmates) make attempts at discussions on such lofty matters. Seriously -- maybe I could have benefited from more lectures -- but not really in the long run.

  757. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:36:00 with 0 likes

    But flesh out the Maritain Church/State analogy a bit more.

  758. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:37:00 with 0 likes

    I mean there's no architectonic relation. The curriculum is self-standing

  759. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:37:00 with 0 likes

    I'm not saying that people can't put it all together; they can and do. But it's not built into the ratio studiorum

  760. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:38:00 with 4 likes

    anyhow we all know that the REAL regina scientiarum at TAC is math

  761. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:40:00 with 2 likes

    I mean consider: no one really gets thrown out for not cutting it in freshman theology; freshman math is the only severe criterion

  762. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:45:00 with 1 likes

    The Berquist - Steadman Dialogue is very relevant here.

  763. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:46:00 with 4 likes

  764. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:46:00 with 2 likes

    well Pater earlier you said "Physics and all that jazz"...and comparing the Physics to jazz would get you excommunicated by Berquist in a jiffy

  765. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:47:00 with 2 likes

  766. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:47:00 with 2 likes

  767. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:48:00 with 1 likes

    yes Mr Berquist had a clear conception of what he was up to. I'd just say that TAC as a whole never did, and never consistently embodied that "tutorial" idea

  768. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:48:00 with 3 likes

  769. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:49:00 with 3 likes

    OK, that I would agree with—particularly the admissions office and its propaganda never really understood the Berquist vision, or at least never really conveyed it.

  770. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:50:00 with 2 likes

    The Berquist Steadman dialogue is here BTW:
    http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED216573.pdf

  771. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:51:00 with 1 likes

    That dialogue is kind of funny. It would have gone better if Mr Berquist could have done the questioning of the interviewer. I think that poor man had no idea how far off base his questions and semi-conclusions were.

  772. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:51:00 with 1 likes

    by poor man, I mean Steadman

  773. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 5 likes

    We used to do dramatic readings of that dialogue in the dorm late at night...

  774. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 3 likes

    But even Mr Berquist never managed to make theology loom large; "theology" in TAC practice meant bits of Thomas, not read in particularly useful order. Seriously, how many TAC grads came out being able to say anything about, for instance, the question of infused contemplation (unless they chose to write a thesis on it)? But that kind of thing is crucial to Catholic theology. Or, how many could name the theories of Incarnation, and which of them are considered orthodox and which aren't?

  775. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:53:00 with 1 likes

    ... after discovering it in a library sale.

  776. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T01:54:00 with 2 likes

    that dialogue is the paradigm of the experience of the Guest Lecturer

  777. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:56:00 with 3 likes

    I remember going over to the Berquists house once (I think sophomore year) and Mrs B asked me" "What's your favorite class this year?" I hesitated and Mr B said "You're supposed to say theology."

  778. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 2 likes

    I had the best theology tutors. That helps a lot.

  779. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 0 likes

    But I think you're right that he wasn't entirely successful in getting theology to loom as large as he wanted.

  780. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:57:00 with 2 likes

    Ferrier, Berquist, MacArthur x 2

  781. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T01:59:00 with 2 likes

    But you guys aren't getting what he is saying about the 'whole' -- there are different ways for theology to be primary. It is that to which the program is ordered. Being the #1 reason for failing isn't one of them.

  782. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:04:00 with 3 likes

    817: tell us about the cash Matthew J. Peterson—how much did you get?

  783. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:06:00 with 0 likes

    Jody Haaf Garneau, no that's true, but the fact that so many more graduates seem to want to study philosophy than theology in grad school —is that actually true? or am I just making that up? Idk —anyway, if it is true it would support JA's point.

  784. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:08:00 with 3 likes

    Does it? It might be more a sign of their maturity after 4 years. Or the practical options for grad school. (options for financial opportunities or lack of are likely similar)

  785. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:11:00 with 4 likes

    Fair enough: http://youtu.be/TjHbuPkUKUY?t=6m26s
    How to Become a Superstar Student at Thomas Aquinas College

  786. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T02:13:00 with 10 likes

    I created a fan page for this thread.
    https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever
    The Neverending Thread
    This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
    Community: 57 like this

  787. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:18:00 with 1 likes

    Joel's first sarcastic comment above is now becoming kind of true.

  788. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:19:00 with 6 likes

    I feel the Development Office could use this. "Alumni involvement extremely high"

  789. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:24:00 with 1 likes

    You were serious Jason!

  790. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T02:26:00 with 6 likes

    Latest post on this thread's fanpage.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Questions for Socratic discussion:
    1) Is the Neverending Thread a part of Sacred Theology per se or per accidens?
    2) What is its relation to Aristotle's doctrine of the eternity of the heavens?
    3) Would Fabre consider it an organism?
    4) If the Thread goes on forever, can it be bisected?
    5) Is it a continuous quantity, or an ensemble of discrete units?
    6) What would the Founding Fathers have said about it?
    7) Would you like to go with me for a rosary walk?

  791. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T02:29:00 with 1 likes

    I think we are all bored. Or have really big things to do like Edward's thesis.

  792. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:31:00 with 1 likes

    https://soundcloud.com/sancrucensis/marcus-berquist-common

  793. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:42:00 with 4 likes

    I have been reflecting on the current discussion and some previous remarks by the troll and I have come to this:
    It seems to me that the fullness of theology and the assent unto is found in the mass, and nowhere else. (This is taught, perhaps more clearly, or at least more often, in the Eastern tradition). The fulness of the faith does not consist in a body of written (or unwritten) doctrine. Perhaps this is why Our Lord says, "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed..."
    That being said, the study of Sacred Doctrine in a formalized manner can and ought to advance one's relationship with God. We do not study contemplation in a formalized way, because it is not the sort of thing that really can be, unless one is brought to it by God. The reason for this is that teaching properly involves only the ordering of concepts in the order of learning so that the student's intellect can properly receive them. A teacher cannot, properly speaking, move the will. A teacher can (and probably should) do certain things to attempt to positively dispose the will of the student, but in the end, the will can only be moved by God. Thus, Pater Edmund, when Berquist said that Theology ought to be your answer when asked "What is your favorite class' maybe that is because your response said more about you and the disposition of your will.
    This is a dangerous type of argument to make, namely, "If you were good enough you would realize how good something is, and if you're not, then you won't." However, given the excellence of the course material that we study in theology, I feel confident in making such an argument.

  794. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:46:00 with 4 likes

    Further, JA Escalante, I object to the position that the admissions office never really got what the school was about. At least when my father-in-law, Tom Susanka was head of admissions I know that he would confer with the founders, particularly McArthur and Berquist about the school and what was essential to it, often. There are few alive today, I believe, who have a better appreciation of what the school is and is supposed to be than my father-in-law. That being said, I am not sure that is true of all those who were/are responsible for advertisement, nor necessarily for the admissions office today.

  795. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:48:00 with 3 likes

    At some point Mr Coughlin (dean at the time) decided he had to do something about wrong expectations, and had the admissions people send the blue book to all applicants. It didn't make much difference.

  796. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:50:00 with 2 likes

    "I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is ... a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord." http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm

  797. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:52:00 with 3 likes

    http://youtu.be/2dP54XzK1ok
    Man Faced Ox Progeny - Down Our Way
    A little clip from 2004 at Thomas Aquinas College. This barbershop quartet was excellent. They could have been big... maybe they still can...

  798. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 2 likes

    We had a great sound.

  799. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 2 likes

    Dissertation calls.

  800. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:53:00 with 1 likes

    ...and fully assented to the Faith.

  801. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:54:00 with 1 likes

    Daniel, that's just special pleading. The RCC has always regarded its theology as a textual corpus insofar as it is ecclesia docens

  802. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T02:54:00 with 0 likes

    but clever move

  803. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T02:55:00 with 2 likes

    That is fair. In that regard, i was merely trying to understand how one can take seriously what the troll said.

  804. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:01:00 with 1 likes

    I grant that Mr Susanka knows what the school is about, or what it wants to be about; I think the problem was a) an unintentionally misleading use of "Socratic", and "discussion method" by Admissions, and b) problems inherent in the ratio studiorum which he might not have noticed, or if he did, might have just chalked up to human frailty. No one's fault

  805. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:04:00 with 1 likes

    but I'm biased by my own experience. I left TAC for DSPT after two years because I wanted scholastic formation in its proper method. Let me tell you, learning logic (esp John of St Thomas) by lecture method felt like heaven after slogging through the Organon in "discussion method". But TAC still manages to work wonders despite what seems to me its somewhat ramshackle ratio, and I feel mostly patriotic feelings toward it

  806. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:06:00 with 3 likes

    You may be right. Something to think about also: TAC was wholly new. Nothing of its kind ever existed. I suppose we should not be surprised if the ratio and practice differ somewhat.
    Here is another way to put it: How else could the school explain to people what it was doing? All the terms: "Socratic," "Discussion method," "Peripatetic," etc., all fall short. Socratic, and Discussion method, however, are close and they also are familiar enough in the preexisting academic categories that they seem to be reasonable choices for use.

  807. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:07:00 with 2 likes

    oh sure. like I said, no one's fault

  808. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:07:00 with 3 likes

    and I agree with Jody that the founders were pretty heroic

  809. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:08:00 with 0 likes

    I also gained something from the DSPT course on Aristotelian logic. It was good to go back.

  810. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:08:00 with 2 likes

    Just as aside, we aren't even close to the record for comments on a fb thread. That is: 584,444 (so start splicing those replies I suggest if you want to reach such infamy)

  811. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:09:00 with 0 likes

    And still growing. oh boy. 584,447...

  812. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:10:00 with 5 likes

    still, I bet we beat anything Christendom College has ever done here

  813. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T03:10:00 with 0 likes

  814. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T03:13:00 with 2 likes

    I still think our word count is higher

  815. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:14:00 with 1 likes

    Edward Langley set out to do 1000. I think that is a noble goal.

  816. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T03:14:00 with 1 likes

    Or, at least a goal.

  817. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T03:29:00 with 5 likes

    https://m.facebook.com/GoesOnForever
    The Neverending Thread
    This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
    Community: 57 like this

  818. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:28:00 with 8 likes

    What!? JA Escalante, you left TAC after TWO YEARS? No wonder you think the ratio studiorum doesn't make sense; the sense doesn't begin to become clear till JUNIOR YEAR. Dude, GO BACK AND FINISH THE PROGRAM AT ONCE.

  819. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:29:00 with 4 likes

    I'm serious. This explains all the things that have puzzled me about your FB comments. Eg. I now understand your bizarre take on Klein on Descartes: OH! YOU NEVER DID JUNIOR MATH!

  820. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T04:32:00 with 1 likes

    Why is there no "dislike" button on FB? I need to dislike this comment: https://www.facebook.com/matth.../posts/10152587096221508...
    Only because it reveals that Escalante MISSED OUT. My dear sir, go back, go back, go back.

  821. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T04:44:00 with 4 likes

    I left TAC after four and a half years! I'm ultra qualified!

  822. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-21T06:00:00 with 2 likes

    By the way, JA Escalante - there were horses at TAC when I was there ('93 grad) so the advertising material was not misleading.
    There is a lot I could say on the topic of the TAC program... Now, and on this thread, is probably not the time.
    I'll just make one parting comment: all these anecdotes about the program of study from one who supposedly attempted it several times and never finished, another who attempted it for two years and quit and another who has never even met a graduate of the program leave me grateful that I learned the limits of personal experiences while studying at TAC.

  823. Joel HF at 2014-08-21T06:35:00 with 5 likes

    Pater Edmund I think more TACers DO study philosophy than theology post grad, but this may say more about the state of theology grad schools over the past 40 years.

  824. Joel HF at 2014-08-21T07:01:00 with 3 likes

    Also, given how befuddled Stedman et al. were, it is hard to think that one could get the true purpose across in an ad in the National Review. Can you blame the school for, how shall I say ... emphasizing the easier to understand aspects of the curriculum there? After all, plenty of people come year after year expecting little math and lots of literature. The school could hardly be more explicit about exactly what is studied.

  825. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T08:13:00 with 1 likes

    Fair enough.

  826. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T08:26:00 with 2 likes

    Joel, I wonder if comparing what graduates study after TAC is a fair assessment of the curriculum, or rather it speaks to the type of person who will suffer through 4 years of TAC.....

  827. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T08:34:00 with 1 likes

    both. Some are predisposed. Others redirected. What else are they good for? (The modern world is unkindly disposed toward a more genuine liberal arts grad. Its a real problem. The traditional jobs are closed off. SJC has other probs but TAC would fit in a more sane world.)

  828. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-21T08:37:00 with 9 likes

    I remember speaking to Dr. Neumayr once when I was in the thick of bearing 6 children and before I went to graduate school to study Theology.
    He told me I was using my education exactly as it was meant to be used: living my life and being a good Mom.
    Studying Theology doesn't say a lot about anything.
    How many graduates are striving for holiness? Teaching the faith to their own children? Volunteering at their parish? Another question entirely....

  829. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T08:42:00 with 0 likes

    hextuplets!

  830. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T09:03:00 with 0 likes

    I do have a response to Marie, but it's better not to say it (it could provoke another good 300 comments) . Suffice it to say her complaint I think is legitimate in my judgement.

  831. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:05:00 with 3 likes

    You read her point as a complaint?

  832. Joel HF at 2014-08-21T09:20:00 with 2 likes

    Michael Beitia (or is it spelled Bethea? ;-)), I think that's true too. And I'd wager there are more TAC alumns w/ STEM post-grad degrees than literature. Could be wrong about that though.

  833. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:23:00 with 0 likes

    Who is Ellit? I don't think I had to read him

  834. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:28:00 with 1 likes

    What's wrong with reading Eliot? or Freud?

  835. Joel HF at 2014-08-21T09:31:00 with 9 likes

    I just checked, they read Elliot at Christendom too. Is there no college left that will magisterially magisterium the fullness of magisterium?

  836. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:33:00 with 3 likes

    Magisterium your magisterial mouth Joel!

  837. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:37:00 with 1 likes

    Tinbergen.

  838. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:40:00 with 1 likes

    Christendom Phil327..... studies Freud. How cavalier!

  839. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:40:00 with 2 likes

    "holistic sacred theology"? Is that like healing crystals?

  840. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:42:00 with 2 likes

    Pater, I actually picked up a copy of "Curious Naturalists" by Tinbergen at a library book sales a few years back. Really interesting.

  841. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T09:43:00 with 8 likes

    «The philosophical disciplines are to be taught in such a way that the students are first of all led to acquire a solid and coherent knowledge of man, the world, and of God, relying on a philosophical patrimony which is perennially valid and taking into account the philosophical investigations of later ages. This is especially true of those investigations which exercise a greater influence in their own nations. Account should also be taken of the more recent progress of the sciences. The net result should be that the students, correctly understanding the characteristics of the contemporary mind, will be duly prepared for dialogue with men of their time.» (Vatican II, Optatam Totius)

  842. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T09:44:00 with 4 likes

    waaaaaay too magisterial.

  843. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T10:07:00 with 1 likes

    some of the tutors at TAC are literature Grads. . .

  844. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:35:00 with 3 likes

    https://archive.org/details/LearningAndDiscipleship
    Learning And Discipleship : Marcus Berquist : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
    A lecture at Thomas Aquinas College

  845. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:38:00 with 1 likes

    so mocking Elliot with pulp movie garbage is sacred holistic crystal healing theology?

  846. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:45:00 with 2 likes

    so you're subscribing to the idea that in order to teach something you need to be specifically trained in that subject, right?

  847. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:49:00 with 2 likes

    « But where there is no wanting, there is a word.
    Which word wants not I want.
    Want which word wants not.
    The words of this word, my prophecy.
    A scroll unfolding and rolling up, revealing
    The beast in the word as the word, and the word
    Made and the word made man. Yet
    In the world by word made the word.
    Honey to tasting, bitter to belly.
    How shall I speak the end? The end is the word. »

  848. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T10:53:00 with 2 likes

    « Much I want to say, unsaid,
    Unsayable, much I must say,
    If say anything, but you tire.
    I should speak in tongues, which,
    Not knowing, you’d more understand
    That you misunderstand me. »

  849. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T10:53:00 with 2 likes

    ^I have no idea what you're typing about^
    Does anyone know a literature PhD (preferably English literature, preferably 20th century) to explain this to me?

  850. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T11:05:00 with 6 likes

    Related probably to nothing, I have always been struck by Augustine's interpretation of taking the gold from Egypt: All good, true, and beautiful things belong to Christianity. Somethings, to be sure, more evidently than others, but my oh my, what a poor world it would be if theologians did not read Eliot.

  851. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:14:00 with 6 likes

    I was at TAC WHEN THERE WERE HORSES.
    When there was only one permanent building!
    I was there in its hard, gritty days. The frontier days.
    All these young whippersnappers have only known the luxury of permanent shelters.... Could they quickly saddle up and ride when a lookout cries, "WASC is coming! WASC is coming!"
    JA Escalante

  852. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:17:00 with 1 likes

    Finally, I agree with Peregrine on something!

  853. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:18:00 with 1 likes

    per accidens or per se?

  854. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:20:00 with 5 likes

    Per accidens. I'm an infidel.

  855. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:20:00 with 1 likes

    ^^ 2nd time I've agreed with him.

  856. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:21:00 with 1 likes

    I enjoy the poetry of Elliot, but I don't agree with Peregott on principle

  857. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-21T11:22:00 with 3 likes

    'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the seminar.
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths cried "Qua!!"

  858. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T11:54:00 with 4 likes

    pretty sure i was i was excommunicated by pope peregrine. It was invalid though and he didnt usf the book ,bell and candle even. Why me?

  859. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T11:58:00 with 2 likes

    You're not missing much. He's just quoting Elliot right now

  860. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T13:07:00 with 3 likes

    John Ruplinger, you suggested above that it is dangerous for one's soul to study theology unless one has taken the Evangelical Councils. I would like to see some discussion of this. What do people think? Is it OK for lay-people and diocesan priests to study theology? Or should it be the exclusive preserve of vowed religious as JR suggests? Surely everyone has to know SOME theology, but I guess that JR meant that only religious should study it scientifically. John Ruplinger: do you think that liberal arts colleges whose students are lay people ought to have no theology classes. What exactly is the claim here?

  861. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:22:00 with 3 likes

    that's quite the dig at TAC tutors: "unemployable Renaissance man masquerading as a Victorian man of leisure (without inheritance)"
    perhaps some might say that educating is a higher calling. But someone whose main thrust is "magisterium magisterium magisterium" wouldn't understand that.

  862. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:26:00 with 1 likes

    to restate: say what you will about the merits or drawbacks of the curriculum, style, culture etc. of TAC, but to personally attack the people working there seems a new low

  863. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:26:00 with 0 likes

    well, not new

  864. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:29:00 with 1 likes

    I should revise that. I agree with the old school that theology ought to be limited for lay folks. I haven't studied the matter. I only see the effects. I certainly wouldn't limit Diocesan priests. They, however, are under a stricter obedience and generally have the faculty of preaching from the bishop. So its not so much Evangelical Councils. I see big problems with the proliferation of lay theologians (lots of mini-popes we have these days.

  865. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:30:00 with 2 likes

    Like Peregrott Weinavenburg?

  866. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:31:00 with 2 likes

    TAC introduces theology. We don't want to enter into a 2000 comment thread with a bunch of amateur know it all theologians like me. Suffice to say I used to like Newman a bunch. I still love his little essay on Elementary Education: it's brilliant and thought provoking. However, I regard his development (written while Anglican) as condemned and very very dangerous (by the Syllubus of St. Pius IX). Watch out for fireworks now.

  867. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:33:00 with 0 likes

    LIS I was ANATHEMITIZED (pretty sure) by pope Peregrinne (amateur lay theologian). SO what does Peregrine think of the distinction of remote vs. proximate Magesterium. What is the Magisterium? THAT might clear up a lot of the troll beatings going on here.

  868. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:34:00 with 1 likes

    you cannot get him to define it. It has been tried. Any question on that front provokes the "see TAC doesn't teach sacred theology" again.
    and again
    and again

  869. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:35:00 with 0 likes

    Has he read Pastor Aeternus?

  870. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T13:35:00 with 0 likes

    beats me

  871. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-21T13:37:00 with 3 likes

    I would argue that Dei Verbum in fact endorses Bl. John Henry Newman's theology of development (which is what lead him out of Anglicanism). What part do you think is irreconcilable with the Syllabus?

  872. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes

    It's his understanding of development

  873. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes

    It's wrong

  874. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:38:00 with 0 likes

    it's condemned by the Syllabus almost verbatim at points.

  875. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:39:00 with 0 likes

    Doctrines are not "developed" like Newman says

  876. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:39:00 with 0 likes

    Rather they are the same in the beginning as now, some literally the same; others indistinctly as you Pater Edmund) note in your essay linked elsewhere.

  877. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:40:00 with 0 likes

    The problem with Newman's development:

  878. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:40:00 with 0 likes

    Is that it opens the door to changing doctrines which is impossible.

  879. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:41:00 with 0 likes

    ((((shhhhh....... Dei Verbum has some probs...... but I haven't read it in a long while))))))) I remember when I taught Scripture the first time, I went digging in Dei Verbum and others more recent. I was very disappointed because I was clueless as to WHAT the Church teaches.

  880. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:42:00 with 0 likes

    I wish I had read more closely Providentissimus Deus because it's very very clear there and so helpful.

  881. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:44:00 with 1 likes

    It's not so much like seeds, Pater Edmund, as it is like an already sapling tree that grows new branches with time. The problem with development (as modernly understand) is that it is an easy tool for the full blown modernists to use to overturn unchangeable doctrine: they do it and they have done it.

  882. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T13:45:00 with 3 likes

    I thought Newman's development was not that something that was doctrine could no longer be doctrine but rather along the lines of the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (and the development of understanding and clarity within different doctrines)

  883. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:46:00 with 0 likes

    But did the Immaculate Conception ever "develop" or was it always there but merely debated??? that is the question (edit: the only development would be with our better understanding of conception and more certitude as to when the soul comes into existence)

  884. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:47:00 with 0 likes

    Clarity, yes. Development, no. Read the Syllabus of Errors. Some of what passes as standard fare is condemned in it (and rightly because it leads to CHANGE of doctrine which is impossible because Truth cannot change over time)

  885. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:54:00 with 2 likes

    The history of theology is nothing but development on our end - but - even worse! - it is development ever born of heresy, and reaction to heresy before it is even determined to be such, and after - heresy which is new every morning and thus timeless! And this development is born of crisis, amidst brutal and emotional politics, and intertwined with so much other than the pursuit of truth in the abstract: much like, for instance, this very thread.
    And yet our view of the Truth does change over time: and this is a traditional thing to say, because it is manifestly true, and does not entail that what truly is changes with our whims.

  886. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes

    That's Newman's take which everyone now says.

  887. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes

    I don't agree.

  888. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:55:00 with 0 likes

    But I am only an amateur.

  889. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:56:00 with 0 likes

    In my opinion there are NO real theologians anymore not one. (or very very few). THIS on the authority of that tiara I gots on my head right now. So there.

  890. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T13:56:00 with 2 likes

    Development, clarity -- they can mean the same. Refining things that have always been seminally there.

  891. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 2 likes

    I think over *most* of the first 1000 years most would actually have agreed with Newman, although they might have put it differently - and this difference in language might signify more - and put you more at ease. But have to run.
    Pull back up at the bar here on my way home.

  892. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 0 likes

    no seminales. There's a difference between indistinct and something that can morph. (this is to Jody Haaf.)

  893. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T13:57:00 with 0 likes

    And answering very real questions that were never asked until circumstances changed, etc.

  894. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:00:00 with 0 likes

    No that is the question Matthew, and I am just not well enough read. Let's just say that Newman's theory was on the chop block in his day. There were propositions almost verbatim in the Syllabus. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, even assuming some bit of development that is legitimate, it has now morphed into something different: a real change of doctrine.

  895. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:01:00 with 2 likes

    Wherefore, Pius X brought in the hammer of all hammer's of the synthesis of all heresies, PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS. Yeah, I'll take some of that please.

  896. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:01:00 with 0 likes

    That isn't how I read Newman. But that would be a whole other thread to do a reading!

  897. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 0 likes

    No, Jody. I used to not either........ It may be that my pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.

  898. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 1 likes

    But when you figure out who and what the modernists are, that'll happen to you.

  899. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:03:00 with 0 likes

    (modernists as defined in Pascendi of course: theological modernists)_

  900. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:06:00 with 0 likes

    I guess someone could misapply Newman's principles but that doesn't make him in error on this. Apparently that has happened.

  901. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:07:00 with 0 likes

    NO. no no. Propositions in that work are explicitly and almost (with the same words) condemned by Syllabus of Errors. Remember he wrote that as still an Anglican.

  902. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:08:00 with 0 likes

    He was not made to recant but his book was on the chopping block and moreover it was REFUTED by someone here in the States whose name I forget (and I haven't read).

  903. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:10:00 with 0 likes

    less like a sapling, John, and more like the blooming of a flower.

  904. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:11:00 with 1 likes

    let's get all poetical and sh*t

  905. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:12:00 with 0 likes

    I suppose I'll take back my analogy (but I didn't start it).

  906. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:13:00 with 3 likes

    Well, I am a little befuddled by the supposed condemnation of Newman. Joshua Kenz would know better than I. That being said, Newman would hold that The Immaculate Conception was in some way believed by all for all time. Certainly the Church clarified her teaching on the matter and that is why it was so defined.
    John, I think you are right that the notion of development has gotten out of hand, but that is hardly reason to reject it as true. It may be reason to stop teaching it so much, however. (Here I am reminded of Cardinal Pell's remarks about the primacy of conscience. With regard to this he said that was certainly true, but people clearly can't handle it, so let's stop talking about it. A good pastoral move, if you ask me.)
    I am of the same mind with regard to lay theologians. I think they have an important place in the Church, and I think many of them have made positive contributions to the Church. I think Pope Francis is right to combat clericalism. The gifts of the Spirit are not determined by whether or not one belongs to an order.
    That being said, lay theologian can and should be subject to the Bishop insofar as they teach theology. Indeed, insofar as they teach theology they are sharing in the bishop's pastoral duty.

  907. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 3 likes

    For the general edification of the masses:
    https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUOWZmYzBkNTg.../edit
    Waldstein- on the Religious sense.mp3 - Google Drive
    docs.google.com

  908. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 4 likes

    can somebody please change their profile pic? All these Arabic "n"s are getting confusing.

  909. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:14:00 with 3 likes

    Clearly you hate persecuted Christians.

  910. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 5 likes

    no, just lay theologians

  911. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 2 likes

    Sorry Michael, I got carried away having read too much trollese.

  912. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T14:15:00 with 2 likes

    ouch

  913. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:17:00 with 4 likes

    A very basic knowledge is all that is needed: the cartoon of static stasis is absurd.
    What serious aspect of the Faith since Christ ascended wasn't hammered out by human beings confronting heresy that wasn't even understood as heresy yet?
    Where has there NOT been development?
    This fear of development reveals an failure to comprehend theology itself.
    From St. Peter grappling with *whether non-Jews could even become Christians at all* on out to the right understanding of the Trinity.
    We all need to take some meat with our milk.

  914. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:18:00 with 0 likes

    oooooooooouuuuch.

  915. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:20:00 with 0 likes

    John -- can you support your claim that ODCD was condemned? Does this mean I have to go read ODCD and PDG side-by-side and it will be self evident? Nothing more than that?

  916. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:21:00 with 0 likes

    you got me Matthew. But would you say that the apostles didn't understand that Christ was the same substance as the Father until LATER WAS invented the word homoousios? [what I meant to say, Matthew]

  917. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T14:21:00 with 2 likes

    Knowing, understanding, and naming are all different steps.

  918. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:22:00 with 3 likes

    Well - I don't know - they didn't need to. Others later on did.

  919. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:23:00 with 1 likes

    Jody, READ the Syllabus. Save it. It's short. Just ask yourself whether you believe these things condemned or not. I have it on very very good authority that his book was suspect of heresy. If you really want I can look it up, but my time on the internet is very short. I know one author who does a most excellent job, but some might not be able to handle the MEAT that he feeds

  920. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:26:00 with 0 likes

    fixed it Matthew.

  921. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:26:00 with 4 likes

    Haha. I'm not trying to slam you or anyone else. I just get grumpy. There is an easy ideology of static stasis in some Christian circles that needs to be thoroughly disinfected.
    The Syllabus of Errors and some grumpy Popes are not answer books for all time to be used as two dimensional standards of ideas - the syllabus is composed of general condemnations culled out of context from prior and complicated events and writings, as Newman points out.
    But really, as even a cursory history of doctrine makes clear, councils don't meet and decide what people should believe in the midst of flowering fields: they are called to respond to need, and the messy demands of fragile human beings in very flawed communities trying to figure out what the hell to do and think about what's good and true.

  922. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:27:00 with 3 likes

    I AM NOT STATIC NO NO NO NO

  923. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:27:00 with 4 likes

    I have jettisoned more opinions than many minions of TAC hold in a lifetime.

  924. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 3 likes

    I take the minion thing as a compliment... They're cute

  925. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 1 likes

    never seen it #tooold

  926. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 0 likes

    SCREW THAT. Grumpy popes man. Now i

  927. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:28:00 with 0 likes

    am taking off the gloves.

  928. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 1 likes

    Look - I think key here is why one even needs a Holy Spirit guarantee for the Church, as Prot's need for the individual. It ain't because this all works out purty-like: otherwise, what's the need.

  929. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 0 likes

    Time for good old fashioned bronze knuckles a la Homeric boxing rules.

  930. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:29:00 with 2 likes

    Menin aeide thea Ruplingeri

  931. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    But the Holy Spirit does not guarantee

  932. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    Which hurled the souls of strong lay theologians into the house of Hades?

  933. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    EVERY

  934. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    council............................most were FALSE.

  935. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    I like grumpy Popes too. But not sure how effective they are or have been though. Internal reform is more a matter of doing and restructuring than it is of yelling about error interlectually speaking from on high. That didn't stop the Reformation nor the Enlightenment.

  936. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 0 likes

    THAT IS THE PROBLEM MATTHEW. because they denounce error, they appear to us as grumpy

  937. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 2 likes

    right, Matthew, let's just go with I'm okay, you're okay

  938. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:32:00 with 0 likes

    FALSE PERSPECTIVE

  939. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:33:00 with 0 likes

    PLEASE, Matthew, you of all people should be recommending Pope Barney the purple dinosaur.

  940. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:33:00 with 1 likes

    To clarify, I use "Holy Spirit guarantee" a bit tongue in cheek. What that actually means doctrinally is a complicated business.

  941. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:35:00 with 0 likes

    Pope Pius X was a lamb, a lamb I tell you. Pascendi is what happens when you tear his sheep to pieces. The lamb has teeth and a roar then. That's real "pastoral" for you viz. Pascere in Latin, like the first word of his document. The intro. to that document is great and MANLY

  942. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:35:00 with 0 likes

    none of the new fad limp wristed crap.

  943. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:37:00 with 0 likes

    I'm not recommending "I'm OK, you're OK", fwiw
    What did the Syllabus accomplish other than making present day trads feel good whenever they trot it out?

  944. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 1 likes

    silly. That document helped lead me from confusion to understand what tradition is.

  945. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 1 likes

    I wasn't born in a cave. I only choose to live there now

  946. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:38:00 with 0 likes

    John, do you see the need for many of the modern encyclicals?

  947. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 1 likes

    I think it helped lead to the VII myself, and the very parts that the defenders of the Syllabus hate most of all.

  948. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 1 likes

    Just call me Supertroll if you will................

  949. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:39:00 with 0 likes

    Michael, if I need to start a fire. Is that what you mean.

  950. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:43:00 with 0 likes

    (putting my tiara back on) You have it all backwards Matthew. nononono. I just don't know what I can say to help you see things otherwise. I don't know whether we can come to an agreement on things. And perhaps, talking about it from this angle is unhelpful.....since we're debating from conclusions and not premises.

  951. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:46:00 with 3 likes

    uhm, there were no "rad trads" during Pius IX's pontificate.

  952. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:46:00 with 1 likes

    Michael, I have read almost every VII and many of Paul VI documents and JPII. Especially the former I've combed through many in Latin. WE HAVE AT THE LEAST very very serious problems with writing precisely....but I'm afraid more than that too. As von Hildebrand pointed out (in a letter to Michael Davies long after he wrote Trojan Horse), we do not have to accept most of these documents (they do not have the kind of authority folks thing they do ---- that's the pastoral provision, esp. in the nota previa). Anywho, hope I don't "scandalize" too many. But we've got really really serious problems that aren't just because trads are crunchy.

  953. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes

    right because trad = catholics

  954. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes

    what's the heresy being fought in Lumen Fidei?

  955. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes

    It's just that many many non-trads are not catholic.

  956. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes

    ^you're one of them^?

  957. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:47:00 with 0 likes

    Lumen Fidei?????

  958. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    what doctrine is being defined, or heresy fought?

  959. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    that's stupid Michael.

  960. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    is it?

  961. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    it's just a question

  962. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    ??

  963. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    so I guess you're saying "none"

  964. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:49:00 with 0 likes

    What is Lumen Fidei? What is your question?

  965. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:49:00 with 1 likes

    no, it is an encyclical. What is the point of it?

  966. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:50:00 with 0 likes

    Oh, I didn't read that. I haven't read new Encycs in a few years.

  967. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:51:00 with 2 likes

    (wink wink- nudge nudge) don't assume we're all always arguing

  968. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:52:00 with 0 likes

    Maybe I should ask everyone:
    WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE ENCYCLICAL, LUMEN FIDEI?

  969. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:54:00 with 0 likes

    indeed.............what is the point? that is often the question. Do we have more or less clarity. It's like an "undevelopment" of the faith. i just want a brick wall I can beat my head against sometimes when I look at the confused world. Does anyone read Jacob Klein's "ON PRECISION" anymore. Great piece: explains everything you need to know about so much that is written.

  970. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T14:59:00 with 1 likes

    I suppose "love is the core of faith" is probably important to focus on, St. Paul didn't say too much about it. (this is sarcasm) (edited to make sarcasm more clear)

  971. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T14:58:00 with 0 likes

    .............. I wonder why

  972. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T14:59:00 with 2 likes

    ^...sorry, what?

  973. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:00:00 with 2 likes

    maybe I can't distinguish sarcasm from reality anymore.

  974. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:01:00 with 7 likes

    in other news, I just popped open Newman to give you guys his five definitions for "development" and then you moved on so I am a little disappointed.

  975. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:03:00 with 1 likes

    life IS disappointment

  976. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:03:00 with 2 likes

    thanks for the update, Buddha.

  977. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:04:00 with 1 likes

    I was just kidding. I think that's from Princess Bride, I haven't read Buddha.

  978. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:05:00 with 2 likes

    ... I was just ribbing you, sir, haha.

  979. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:06:00 with 2 likes

    1052

  980. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:06:00 with 0 likes

    On Faith. Here's a pretty good explanation. I DON"T know why everything needs to be brought up date, unless that just means brought up to our current state of absolute frickin unbelievable state of confusion. http://www.cin.org/.../ebooks/master/trent/tcreed00.htm
    THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Creed -- Introduction
    www.cin.org
    The Catechism of Trent

  981. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:07:00 with 2 likes

    Can I wax nostalgic for 1 page encyclicals?

  982. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:08:00 with 1 likes

    or is that too "grumpy pope"?

  983. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:08:00 with 0 likes

    Just started reading the Catechism of Trent a few months ago AND if that isn't precisely like the remedy for our age, I don't know what is. very precise (and hard hitting) and YES MICHAEL WHY ARE THEY ALL SO DAMN RAMBLING LONG!!!

  984. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 0 likes

    Wasn't rambling the criticism by Garagou Lagrange of a certain dissertaion of a certain.......

  985. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 1 likes

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm
    UNAM SANCTAM
    www.papalencyclicals.net
    Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims:…

  986. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:12:00 with 5 likes

    Nina: POST THEM.
    This is the thread that *never* ends - so we don't "move on" or "move back" here.
    Put aside your time bound anxieties here on the thread that never ends, Nina Rachele
    Post.
    Post and be free.

  987. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:09:00 with 1 likes

    There are 5 senses of "development of ideas" which Newman thinks can be used in Christian Doctrine: political, logical, historical, moral, and metaphysical

  988. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:10:00 with 1 likes

    ...............theological ???

  989. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:10:00 with 0 likes

    who is Nina Gapinski? and will they feel uncomfortable being tagged in this post?

  990. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:11:00 with 0 likes

    Peterson: we move in a circle

  991. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T15:12:00 with 3 likes

    the eternal return of the same, a wise fellow remarked 900 comments ago

  992. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:13:00 with 1 likes

    Sorry Nina Rachele - tagged wrong person.

  993. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:14:00 with 1 likes

    I love GRUMPY OLD POPES. DEAR GOD, PLEASE GRANT US AGAIN YOUR GRUMPY OLD POPES. UNAM SANCTAM is short and sweet

  994. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:14:00 with 0 likes

    "[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9

  995. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:15:00 with 2 likes

    No worries, Mr. Peterson, I just thought she might be a little surprised to be tagged...

  996. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:17:00 with 1 likes

    I really miss the stakeburnings too.

  997. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:22:00 with 0 likes

    I have a big "huh?" next to most of the ethical development passage... "Ethical developments are not properly matter for argument and controversy, but are natural and personal, substituting what is congruous, pious, appropriate, generous, for strictly logical inference." pg 47 ch 1 section 6. The main example he gives later is "The Holy Eucharist" which I think refers generally to the development whereby He was reserved in the Tabernacle, and then the later development of Eucharistic adoration.

  998. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:23:00 with 1 likes

    Don't need to quote historical developments, it just means finding the right dates of things that happened in Scripture.

  999. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:24:00 with 0 likes

    Here is Newman, post Syllabus Errorum, trying to undermine said syllabus: http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f057_Newman_2.htm
    Newman and the Pope - Part II by James Larson
    www.traditioninaction.org
    John Henry Newman undermines the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX

  1000. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:25:00 with 1 likes

    He led a campaign to undermine it because he KNEW that he held (at least at one time) many of the things condemned.

  1001. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes

    Logical developments also don't really have one place for their definition, just that "the intellectual process is detached from the practical, and posterior to it." From his examples, I think he's mostly referring to when certain practices or ideas are held just as empty words in one generation, then in the next the actual spirit of the words gets taken up as a real thing. A good example might be the civil rights movement insisting on actual equality a hundred years after it was granted to them in principle.

  1002. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes

    Nina Rachele, huh is right. A careful examination of his epistemology leads to real problems. (I haven't read his Grammar of Assent.) I trust Laron's account of it here. He's fundamentally nominalist it seems to me, which is very problematic for ALL dogmas of the faith.

  1003. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:30:00 with 0 likes

    http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partvi
    Part VI: Does God Love Us: An Examination of the Epistemology of John Henry Newman | The War...
    www.waragainstbeing.com
    "Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration." (James 1: 17)

  1004. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes

    By political development he is talking about the development of church government from, say, Peter-->bishops to pope-->bishops+curia, various other church governing bodies.

  1005. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes

    ::drops mike::

  1006. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:32:00 with 1 likes

    No, Nina, his epistemology is modernist (as condemned in Pascendi). He is adulated today because he espoused immanentism, which necessarily leads to the devaluation (if not destruction) of dogma and contributes to their changeability.

  1007. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:35:00 with 1 likes

    Mr. Ruplinger, just for clarification, my "huh?" next to the ethical development passage was because he was quoting a verbose bishop as some kind of example and it flew right over my head.

  1008. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:37:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah, Nina, it's been a loong while since I read him. LIS he is the protoevangelist for the modernist. full. stop. end sentence. period. It's why everyone is all Newman said this, Newman said that. ......... yeah, he says some good stuff, but upon close inspection..... TO YOUR ETHICS, however, this appears consonant with Newman's epistemology. He holds almost a double truth. But LIS, I haven't read him in awhile.

  1009. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-21T15:37:00 with 1 likes

    Now this is actually going somewhere!

  1010. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T15:38:00 with 0 likes

    I'm out for a while.

  1011. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T15:40:00 with 7 likes

    Lauren Ogrodnick: this isn't "going anywhere."
    This thread just is.
    To be sure, we are in time in relation to it. So we may go somewhere based on our interaction with it. But it itself is outside of time, in time only by operation.

  1012. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T15:41:00 with 4 likes

    now that I have provided you all with this information, may I suggest you take his definition of metaphysical development as the primary definition of development and discuss further from there. So, if I were actually asking the opening question at this point, I would open to that quote and ask "Is this wrong? Is it consonant with Church teaching?" Just so you know, the main example he gives of metaphysical development is the Athanasian Creed--can we characterize the Creed in that way?
    Um, I need to go study for my paralegal class now, so catch you folks on the flip side...

  1013. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-21T15:41:00 with 0 likes

    Okay Proclus ...

  1014. Joel HF at 2014-08-21T15:48:00 with 0 likes

    What is immanentism?

  1015. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T16:21:00 with 0 likes

    jhf read pascendi. I will summarize ltr.

  1016. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-21T16:31:00 with 3 likes

    Nina, I don't know you, but I like you already.

  1017. Megan Baird at 2014-08-21T18:47:00 with 2 likes

    Random sidebar: Still not sure why Peregrine insists on mispelling Beitia's name....

  1018. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T18:48:00 with 3 likes

    One of life's finer mysteries Megan

  1019. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T18:49:00 with 1 likes

    It probably goes back to comment 127

  1020. Megan Baird at 2014-08-21T18:56:00 with 0 likes

    Please summarize comment 127...

  1021. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-21T19:43:00 with 2 likes

    I'm kidding. I don't know when it started --but I believe the wrong name usage predated this particular thread

  1022. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T19:43:00 with 0 likes

    Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.

  1023. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-21T19:53:00 with 0 likes

    Joel HF, immanence signifies the divine presence in all people or all people. It is pantheistic, often signified contemporarily as "divine experience" found in all religions. It often accompanies the belief in universal salvation. De Chardin comes to mind.

  1024. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-21T20:46:00 with 1 likes

    Twenty year olds are for the most part intellectual babies and should be coddled and spoon fed. One of my architecture professors once told us that architecture was "an old man's game" and I think the same is basically true of theology (and philosophy).
    Unless you are thinking of re-introducing old medieval-style disputations, which I admit do sound exciting.
    Mr. Ruplinger, I really want to try and understand what you are saying but it might take me some time to get through what you've posted.

  1025. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:19:00 with 3 likes

    Wow...I return to this thread to find it exploded....somewhere I was tagged, but FB is too stupid to take me directly to that comment....so I had to dig a bit to find it, only to find that much has expired since. And I am afraid by the time I catch up and think on it, I will be in the dust again. But if I can make a general observation on Newman....Mr. Ruplinger points to Newman's epistemology. That is the heart of the issue.
    I loved Newman when I first read him, his Apologia pro vita sua namely. I was turned off when I read the Grammar of Assent. For those familiar with the analytic tradition of philosophy, you will recognize that in Newman, even though he actually predated it. Many of the same principles held by Frege and other analytics prevail in Newman. It is not as favorable to logic though in the direction he takes it. People have use "personalism" but a better description might be a methodological nominalism...actually, scratch that. He was straight up nominalist. Universals, in his mind, were just vague generlities, that need not even apply in the concrete.
    Take "man is rational" For Newman that might be a justified generalization, but he will say that doesn't mean all men are rational
    But let us here his own words:
    "Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it." (Grammar of Assent, chap. 8 §1 par. 2)
    We can only, then, really know individuals. Only "facts in the concrete"
    If you want to read for yourself more: http://www.newmanreader.org/works/grammar/chapter8-1.html
    Newman Reader - Grammar of Assent - Chapter 8
    www.newmanreader.org
    {259} I is the conditional acceptance of a proposition, Assent is the unconditional; the object of Assent is a truth, the object of Inference is the truth-like or a verisimilitude. The problem which I have undertaken is that of ascertaining how it comes to pass that a conditional act leads to an unc…

  1026. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:23:00 with 3 likes

    Now, how does is epistemology affect his theory on the development of doctrine? That shouldn't be too hard to see that it must, in some measure...the very concerns in both works being along the same lines...but it might be a dissertation to analyse it fully.

  1027. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:25:00 with 0 likes

    Christopher Wolfe do you have thoughts re analytics and Newman above?

  1028. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:26:00 with 5 likes

    Do note, lastly, that Newman was quite idiotic in his naive rejections of much of scholastic principles. If you read the link I gave, you will tell readily that his rejection of universals rests on the sort of prima facie reading that a teenager might give to "man is rational." Namely that he may be irrational. But that is to misunderstand what is claimed, rather badly at that.
    But he didn't have TAC to hook him on Aristotle and Aquinas... he was in the tradition of Bacon and Locke instead

  1029. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:28:00 with 2 likes

    Joshua Kenz: what is the alternative document, author, view, etc,, as you see it, to Newman when it comes to explain the historical fact of the widely developing doctrine of the Church over time - from the early Church determining whether or not it should admit non-Jews to the finer points of the Trinity, etc.

  1030. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T21:32:00 with 0 likes

    Peterson, isn't it self evident that the truth unfolds over time?

  1031. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:34:00 with 2 likes

    thank you Joshua

  1032. Sean Robertson at 2014-08-21T21:38:00 with 9 likes

    I've been following this thread since the beginning (and, for what it's worth, am one of the ugly mugs from the original article way up there, who apparently spent last year in "idle speculation"). I fear this discussion of Newman is not a genuine development from what was contained seminally at the beginning of this thread; that is to say, we seem to be dangerously close to a polite, consistent, and sane intellectual discussion. It seems to me that the early Thread Fathers might not approve.

  1033. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T21:39:00 with 1 likes

    I certainly don't....

  1034. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T21:51:00 with 6 likes

    On the contrary Sean Robertson: the early thread fathers all agreed about everything and had everything figured out.
    In fact, they began the submagisterium of this thread, which is a static block of truth that needs to be used to hit everyone here over the head, repeatedly, until they see things the way I see the early thread fathers.

  1035. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:53:00 with 4 likes

    ^ Modernist

  1036. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:53:00 with 0 likes

    you're gonna "develop" yourself right into a doctrine of Divine Quaternity or some mess

  1037. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T21:54:00 with 3 likes

    Mr. Peterson, not a clue. I am not sure if Newman was the first (always a dangerous claim!) but he is certainly the most prominent person to put forward a theory of "development." I mean, obviously earlier scholastics recognized some sort of development. Such is implicit in the debates about what can constitute dogma. e.g. if the minor premise is de fide, but the major is from reason, is the conclusion capable of being de fide? Do both premises have to be? Just major? Without getting into an argument about the roles of syllogisms in dogma, such arguments presume the possibility of discursive reason discovering truth that are de fide, from one or more premises already known de fide. And as such a growth in understand and knowledge. We can say more particular truths are contained in more universal truths, and if you want Newman's terminology, the more universal ideas would become seminal ideas.
    Now this is just off the cuff, so take it with a grain of salt. But does it not seem that Newman's rejection of syllogistic reasoning (except as giving mere probability), universals (let alone truths more universal containing particulars), etc. make the question of development something that required a book to try and defend and try and avoid something like evolution of dogma? If you hold the ability to have universals and reason with certitude from them to other propositions, doesn't the problem largely disappear? While admitting that the historical process was messy, and not necessarily accomplished without a bunch of groping and feeling.

  1038. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T21:56:00 with 0 likes

    Joshua, the first developmentalist in the Newman sense was probably Petavius, who was countered by the Protestant Bishop Bull (who was congratulated by Bossuet, as I recall, for his efforts)

  1039. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:03:00 with 4 likes

    JAson, Peterson is a heretic. His animist writings on the "spirit of the bear" have been roundly condemned

  1040. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:03:00 with 2 likes

    I discerned his wickedness the day I met him

  1041. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:04:00 with 0 likes

    I have to ask, though, as a protestant, do you see doctrine developing a la Newman?

  1042. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:04:00 with 2 likes

    absolutely not

  1043. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 0 likes

    is the reform of the reform (in your mind) something nascent in Christianity?

  1044. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 5 likes

    but that is not really a conversation for this thread. Let's stick to Peterson's wickedness

  1045. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-21T22:05:00 with 0 likes

    fair enough. I'll message you some other time.....

  1046. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T22:06:00 with 3 likes

    if I were Catholic I would regard Newman's epistemology and developmentalism as a trojan horse; I'll say that much, Message me privately

  1047. Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:28:00 with 3 likes

    Well Matthew J. Peterson, I'm in the same boat as Joshua since I haven't been following this massive number of comments, but I'll throw in my 2 bits. Joshua's quote from Newman which he described as "nominalist" might be nominalist but then again not. The way I would describe that Newman quote is: "set-theory," and yes, it is quite similar to what analytics such as Gottlob Frege say because predicate logic involves "sets," not universals. However philosopher who accepts set theory and predicate logic needn't be a "set theory nominalist," and can be very close to holding an Aristotelian theory of universals depending on what he says about necessity and possibility- Peter Geach and GE Anscombe are the best examples of that sort of thing. Anscombe wrote and accepted ALOT of what Aristotle claims, but never herself accepted his theory of the forms in his writings as far as I can tell. That's why she doesn't necessarily think of the soul as the form of the body, and wrote essays like "Immortality of the Soul" arguing that when we die we could be resurrected without anything like Aristotle's potential intellect surviving. It was Anscombe's backup plan just in case the nominalists were correct about universals.

  1048. Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:29:00 with 2 likes

    P.S.- A majority of orthodox Catholic theologians during the middle ages WERE nominalists, historical fact (eg, see John Marenbon's book).

  1049. Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:35:00 with 3 likes

    As for Newman, I read in a biography about him that after becoming Catholic he went to Rome seeking the Thomists out to learn from them, but the Thomism he found literally was a shambles of a school at the time (that was before Aeterni Patris, of course). So I think Newman really was coming out of a different education than we Thomists are used to, and was trying to figure things out without the intellectual resources we can now rely on

  1050. Christopher Wolfe at 2014-08-21T22:50:00 with 0 likes

    I'm glad to hear it, that was always my assumption until reading that quote just now. Joshua (if you're out there in cyberspace), is there any more proof that you could present to justify your claim that Newman rejected universals?

  1051. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:17:00 with 2 likes

    That quote from Newman basically describes what goes on at TAC. So what again were all these ten jillion comments about?

  1052. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:20:00 with 1 likes

    That's just a sort of substitution of prudence and imagination for reason, and hunches/gestalt impressions for clear ideas. That doesn't make him much of anything except a Romantic

  1053. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:21:00 with 3 likes

    hahaha unargued assertions. we have come to this

  1054. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:22:00 with 0 likes

    except that reason for him isnt "scientific". But it is for Aquinas.

  1055. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:23:00 with 3 likes

    apparently they ignore distinctions at Christendom

  1056. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:24:00 with 4 likes

    I agree that Newman is not so simple, Peregrine Bonaventure, but the thread that never ends will allow us to continue that in a bit.
    We all need to look at what JA Escalante just said as regards the Newman quote you quoted approvingly above: tell us a bit more about how and why you think it doesn't describe TAC, because it sure seems like it is Newman defending TAC against you and your objections...

  1057. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:25:00 with 3 likes

    But this too quick dismissal of Newman also needs to be discussed.
    Thank God this thread is outside of time.

  1058. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-21T23:26:00 with 1 likes

    At some point you need to explain to us why your Newman quote doesn't contradict what you've said all thread, because it seems it does.

  1059. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-21T23:39:00 with 3 likes

    Petavius, as in the moon crater? Okay, I heard the name, never read him. I knew he did a lot of working with the history of theology...makes sense he would have something like a development theory.
    I refrained from calling Newman a modernist, or his theory unorthodox. But I will not refrain from calling Newman, as his views are in the Grammar of Assent, as so obviously nominalist that it boggles the mind how anyone can miss that. Or how he mocks the very form of reasoning used by Aristotle and Aquinas
    Quoting from the same place
    "we wish to ascertain, will be found to reduce the force of the inferential method from demonstration to the mere determination of the probable. Thus, whereas (as I have already said) Inference starts with conditions, as starting with premisses, here are two reasons why, when employed upon questions of fact, it can only conclude probabilities: first, because its premisses are assumed, not proved; and secondly, because its conclusions {269} are abstract, and not concrete."
    "And in like manner as regards John and Richard, when compared with one another; each is himself, and nothing else, and, though, regarded abstractedly, the two may fairly be said to have something in common, (viz., that abstract sameness which does not exist at all,) yet strictly speaking, they have nothing in common, for each of them has a vested interest in all that he himself is"
    "Let units come first, and (so-called) universals second; let universals minister to units, not units be sacrificed to universals. John, Richard, and Robert are individual things, independent, incommunicable. We may find some kind of common measure between them, and we may give it the name of man, man as such, the typical {280} man, the auto-anthropos. We are justified in so doing, and in investing it with general attributes, and bestowing on it what we consider a definition. But we think we may go on to impose our definition on the whole race, and to every member of it, to the thousand Johns, Richards, and Roberts who are found in it. No; each of them is what he is, in spite of it. Not any one of them is man, as such, or coincides with the auto-anthropos. Another John is not necessarily rational, because "all men are rational," for he may be an idiot;—nor because "man is a being of progress," does the second Richard progress, for he may be a dunce;—nor, because "man is made for society," must we therefore go on to deny that the second Robert is a gipsy or a bandit, as he is found to be. There is no such thing as stereotyped humanity; it must ever be a vague, bodiless idea, because the concrete units from which it is formed are independent realities. General laws are not inviolable truths; much less are they necessary causes. Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it."
    Newman is clear that he is rejecting the very Organon of Aristotle, as far as "truth in the concrete" goes. It only touches the abstract, and he is very dismissive of that. He even calls the universal the "tyrant of the majority" using Elias as a counterexample to "all men are mortal."

  1060. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-21T23:48:00 with 0 likes

    Petavius= Denis Petau, SJ

  1061. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T00:06:00 with 4 likes

    More, from an unpublished paper of 1868:
    If abstract truths, (or what nominalits call "generalizations" from experience) are objective, (as realists would hold,) therefore they are objects- what is the object? Beautifulness, for instance- What does the mind see when it contemplates this abstraction?-is it God? if not, is it one of the Platonic everlasting ideas external to God? if not, can it be any thing at all, and are we not driven to agreement with the school of Locke and sensible experiences.
    I dare say there is some simple refutation at once of the following answer, which has this only recommendation, that I have held it these forty years strenously- on the other hand I am so little versed in the controversy...
    Ido not allow the existence of these abstract ideas corresponding to objective realities with Locke-but then, I do not pass over the experiences gained from the phenomena of mind so slightly, as I fancy the school of Locke is apt to do...
    And more from the Grammar:
    "All things in the exterior world are unit and individual, and are nothing else; but the mind not only contemplates those unit realities, as they exist, but has the gift, by an act of creation, of bringing before it abstractions and generalizations, which have no existence, no counterpart, out of it.
    Now there are propositions, in which one or both of the terms are common nouns, as standing for what is abstract, general, and non-existing, such as "Man is an animal, some men are learned, an Apostle is a creation of Christianity, a line is length without breadth, to err is human, to forgive divine." These I shall call notional propositions, and the apprehension with which we infer or assent to them, notional.
    And there are other propositions, which are composed of singular nouns, and of which the terms stand for {10} things external to us, unit and individual, as "Philip was the father of Alexander," "the earth goes round the sun," "the Apostles first preached to the Jews;" and these I shall call real propositions, and their apprehension real.
    There are then two kinds of apprehension or interpretation to which propositions may be subjected, notional and real." (from chap 1)
    And it won't take long to see he disparages "notional" That is even a common complaint among some of his fans.

  1062. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T01:39:00 with 4 likes

    I wonder if nominalism is a sufficient structure to study and comment on history? Though the nominalist would probably view history as some sort of master science, since the well educated historian could make the best generalizations. That being said, history does not have universals, only generalizations, so a nominalist's approach to history might be a sufficient one.
    This occurs to me about theology: The right context for theology is a well-ordered prayer life. The only one suited to judge about someone's well-ordered prayer life is a confessor or spiritual director, or oneself. Thus, a school that teaches theology must only make a well-ordered prayer life possible. A well-ordered prayer life, of course, has its pinnacle in Holy Mass. As perfect, it would include the fulness of liturgical observance with the Divine Office. This perhaps sheds light on a discussion we had above (note, Matthew J. Peterson, I do not say "before") when we discussed the lay theologian. Insofar as there is a valid and healthy prayer life possible for a layman, and insofar as there is truly a domestic church, then it is possible for there to be lay theologians. Though, evidently, lay theologians cannot obtain to the perfection that religious theologians do, because of the imperfection of their state in life.
    Joshua, thanks for coming back to this thread!

  1063. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T05:22:00 with 1 likes

    Joshua is right that Newman is not as realist as St Thomas, but he is certainly not as nominalist as analytic philosophy or empiricism. See: http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...

  1064. Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-22T07:34:00 with 3 likes

    I nominate you all to pour a bucket of ice on your heads every time a comment is added to this thread.

  1065. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T07:59:00 with 0 likes

    thanks joshua. I almost opened my grammar of assent for the first time. I think Joshua and James Larson (linked above) do a sufficient job proving Newman nominalist. Its obvious in some writings and undetectable in others (a modernist tactic). If someone refutes Larson on Newman i may seriously do some work. But i have a different question for Christopher or any one. Were there any notable theologians that an arm chair pope like i might know, who were nominalists? Because like Richard Weaver i view them as termites that hollow out faith and reason entirely?

  1066. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T08:03:00 with 3 likes

    don't want to waste clean water, Anthony.
    So what does Newman's nominalism have to do with:
    A) his idea of a university and
    B) his idea of the development of Christian doctrine?

  1067. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:09:00 with 0 likes

    The idea is vacuous though. So what does it matter? (Seriously the only really great piece in it is on elementary education and in light of his nominalism and many imprecise statements most ironic.)

  1068. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:12:00 with 0 likes

    as to doctrine, he is modernist but one need read Pascendi for that to be understood. Nominalism undermines all doctrines.

  1069. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T08:13:00 with 0 likes

    i will elaborate if i have time.

  1070. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T08:23:00 with 0 likes

    I've read Pascendi, both for class at TAC and later on for my own personal reference (as a refresher).
    Is it possible that his views on epistemology were inconsistent internally in his writings? Obviously if one is consistently nominalist, history and experimental science are the only fields of (valid) study.
    (I am reminded of the mathematician Gauss saying he wanted to have people on the tops of three mountain peaks, sufficiently far apart, to measure the interior angles of a triangle between the three to determine whether geometry is Euclidean or not...)

  1071. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T09:03:00 with 0 likes

    I've read Pascendi several times over a year ago, and I am in need of a reread. I have a terrible memory. It is packed and applying it takes time. The modernist heresy (as therein defined) is the GOAT (or WOAT) in the history of the Church -- I have no doubt and if any do, they don't get or reject Pasceni imo -- and it's influence is ubiquitous. It certainly leads to apostasy step by step and so many in little or great ways are unknowingly caught up in it. (I do not condemn Newman the person, to be clear. He was suspect in his day and Cardinal Manning, esp. argued against him. Again, I rely a lot on James Larson but will do my own work if he be refuted, because the arguments are the lever imo to move all that follows).
    I don't think any of the nominalist are consistent. They use or don't use logic as it suits them. If all ideas are as empty as they they think then nominalism itself is highly improbable as an idea, no?
    Bacon is most forthright. In the preface to one of his works (I can't remember), he openly admits profound skepticism but declares that he will unlike the skeptics of old, be inconsistent: a self-proclaimed sophist in the old negative sense, at least he is honest. He also slips in and out of the old method of argument as he list in Novum Organon which obviously is nothing but a replacement for logic.
    As to consistency again, Pius X points out the modernist have almost a double mind (and so too nominalists); they have a double truth almost. And shift from writing as nominalist, to writing as one of Faith. Or in the case of dogma, they assent to it outwardly, but I cannot understand how they assent inwardly. God knows. Tis a puzzlement.

  1072. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T09:10:00 with 1 likes

    Returning to the "Idea of University", they are simply a collection of lectures, and I was never much impressed with them. In them he actually outlines the modern university. The only piece on Elementary Education, was obviously never a lecture but a very clever dialogue. In it, however, some of the wrong methods of learning in mid19th century are evident: esp. the stagnant English method of Latin which the Jesuits traditionally taught orally (much easier to learn). At the same time it is a very good and thought provoking dialogue, showing the need to balance self-learning and receive DIRECTION from a tutor -- apropos to the earlier beginnings of a discussion on education.
    One note: the Jesuits were famous for conducting their classes in a delightful way such that the students so interested learned the most difficult things almost effortlessly. I wish I knew how they did it. Waugh (Edmund Campion) points it out (and others). Fr. Thomas Hughes wrote the only book in English detailing their course and giving some insight to what they did. Peregrine might be interested to learn that St. Ignatius himself thought rhetoric (read literature) was the only part of the course NEVER to be compromised: literature for THREE years -- to ease Peregrine's concerns, he should also note that they excised the more salacious and saltry parts of texts like parts of Book II of the Aeneid. anyways, gotta run ..... late already.

  1073. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T09:17:00 with 2 likes

    Hmmm. John, did you read the text to which Pater Edmund linked? There is a strong argument against his being a nominalist there.
    I have kept hearing that there are several texts and places of Pascendi that condemn Newman, but this more and more starting to sound like something made up. Currently, there is only slander being proffered: "He was suspect in his time," "So and so said he was Nominalist", etc.
    It seems that Joshua made some real, text-based arguments for Newman being a Nominalist. I would be interested to see his response to Pater Edmund.
    What is more, I suggested above that one engaging in an historical or practical project, might very well come off as a nominalist.
    Finally, one should be wary of saying, "This guy had bad or weak philosophy, therefore he is a modernist." We can't go that route for many reasons. One of which is that such an approach robs Pascendi of its force.
    Maybe it is time to go to the chapel and pray for Bl. Newman's intercession. Then maybe re-read his texts, perhaps with greater charity and sobriety of mind.

  1074. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:19:00 with 2 likes

    the Aeneid?? Apparently St. Ignatius didn't teach the fullness of sacred theology in accordance with the magisterium

  1075. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T09:28:00 with 2 likes

    Not that secondary sources count for much around here, but in Copleston's History of Philosophy Volume VIII he suggests that Newman's approach is more along phenomenological lines. In summarizing Newman's approach to the assent of faith he says
    "[...]we must distinguish between two types of assent. Assent given to a proposition apprehended as notional, as concerned with abstract ideas or universal terms, is notional assent, while that which is given to propositions apprehended as real, as concerned directly with things or persons, is real assent.
    Now Newman takes it that things and persons, whether objects of actual experience or preented imaginatively in memory, strike the mind much more forcibly and vividly than do abstract notions. ****Real apprehension therefore is 'stronger than notional, because things, which are its objects, are confessedly more impressive and effective than notions, which are the object of notional [apprehension]. Experiences and their images strike and occupy the mind, as abstractions and their combinations so not.' ****** Similarly, although, according to Newman, all assent is alike in being unconditional, acts of assent 'are elicited more heartily and forcibly, when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made in favour of notions and with a notional apprehension.' Further, real assent, though it does not necessarily affect conduct, tends to do so in a way in which purely notional assent does not.
    Real assent is also called belief by Newman. [...]" pg. 517
    Copleston's quotes are taken from the Grammar of Assent. He never really gets to the point of calling Newman, well, a member of any philosophical school in particular. The asterisked part indicates the main section in this passage that I underlined when I read it. Side question: is phenomenology a secret cover for nominalism, because now I'm confused...

  1076. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:46:00 with 2 likes

    I think there is a very distinct difference between nominalism (which Newman may or may not have been.... I think Mr. Kenz did some good work with that) and phenomenology.
    But I think it is pretty clear from a study of Brittish Empiricists that the separation into "notional" and "real" leads directly to nominalism.

  1077. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T09:54:00 with 4 likes

    so maybe he (Newman) wasn't a nominalist, but he could see it from his house....

  1078. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:22:00 with 1 likes

    I can't speak for Daniel, but no, obviously

  1079. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T10:29:00 with 2 likes

    Mr. ...um... Mr. PB Scott, is there a certain list of texts you have in mind for content? I have the impression that it is basically church councils, Scripture, and the Catechism but I might be mistaken; also you may have posted a list earlier that I missed. Also for what you mean by structure my closest guess is chronological. I am just telling you what my basic impression of your ideas are, you can give a yea or nay and explain further.

  1080. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T10:32:00 with 4 likes

    In addition, I think Mr. Lendman's outline is consonant with Augustine's own qualifications in De Doctrina Christiana.

  1081. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:37:00 with 1 likes

    Michael, I consider myself spoken for.

  1082. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:37:00 with 0 likes

    Nina, I am liking you more and more, by the post.

  1083. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:39:00 with 3 likes

    Rather than unpacking what Newman is known for and examining it, giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand what he means, and then weighing that, and trying to understand why so many of good might tout and study and say they learn from him:
    Note how we are now leaping to write him off based on where he says things that oppose a body of thought we identify with.
    This is the hermeneutic of inquisition.
    It is worth noting that he didn't receive a Thomistic education (not his fault - things had imploded) but this doesn't answer the question - it might be important, of course, but it might not. I'm glad it's been brought out - and it very much worth noting - but it is not a refutation.
    He's not known and praised and read for his epistemology.

  1084. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:39:00 with 2 likes

    The idea that phenomenology is nominalism, however, is just absurd to my mind. The long line of people who came out of Husserl - nominalists? They were trying to save the world from positivism and historicism for Pete's sake.

  1085. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:46:00 with 0 likes

    Though, Matthew, it does seem worthwhile to argue that Newman's philosophy was not a damning impediment to his theological work, specifically with regard to development.
    I am still interested in Joshua Kenz's response to Pater Edmund.

  1086. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:50:00 with 0 likes

    Daniel Lendman, your accusation is thoroughly absurd. Not a quote in this thread from Newman, that has not been shown to be or is evidently unsound. I've linked James Larson. I don't expect any here to refute him, but his criticism is devastating. I have read a deal of Newman with great care.

  1087. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes

    ...my name is Daniel.

  1088. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes

    And you argue like a politician.

  1089. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 1 likes

    Me too - and also I am interested in anyone's response to Newman's kinds of development that Nina Rachele brought out.

  1090. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:51:00 with 0 likes

    Please lay things out clearly.

  1091. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:52:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah, Nina's text is interesting.

  1092. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:53:00 with 0 likes

    okay, lemme get this straight, Newman isn't known or read for his epistemology, but we have to read this idea of development of doctrine (which seems pretty epistemological). Which is it?

  1093. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes

    Or is it more historical?

  1094. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes

    historical in the sense of Historicist is epistemological

  1095. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:54:00 with 0 likes

    or phenomenological?

  1096. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:55:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah, don't discuss his epistemology which is the heart and root of the problem. As to Nina, that is a summary and I disagree with Newman. Notional assent is more certain than assent to the world of phenomena. Again, evidence of his nominalism

  1097. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 0 likes

    As to Pater Edmund's link, I read I thought the whole article, but maybe not.

  1098. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 1 likes

    Well, I'd start with what he says about development and then tie that his episteme if I was against him. Kenz did a bit of that tie so it wasn't quite clear.
    But anyone for 'em is going to say who gives a crap about what he thought about universals if you read the rest of his writings - he was stuck with crappy episteme and the rest of his work doesn't really rely on it.
    Etc.

  1099. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 4 likes

    This is the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting, not knowing what it was, and they'll keep on posting forever just because this is thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my...

  1100. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T10:56:00 with 1 likes

    so you're saying baptize his works like Thomas did to Aristoilet?

  1101. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 0 likes

    I agree, Matthew Miller

  1102. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 0 likes

    To both things.

  1103. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T10:57:00 with 5 likes

    OK, so I've put all the nominations that have been posted so far into a google doc: https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...
    And I've set it so it can be edited by anyone who has the link. Please complete titles years etc. and add nominations under the correct headings. But if you add a nomination mention hear on the thread as well.
    Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs
    docs.google.com

  1104. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T10:59:00 with 0 likes

    So Lendman, every response I've made is merely "political". I don't think you hardly read half of my responses.

  1105. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T10:59:00 with 0 likes

    <sigh>

  1106. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:00:00 with 0 likes

    Will you please, oh sir sigh a lot, return above and show me how or how not Nina's quote of Newman's understanding of metaphysical development is not ridiculous?

  1107. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:01:00 with 0 likes

    I've tried to be fair as well as polemical, but I am quite concerned as other better thinkers than I about the nominalist position.

  1108. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:01:00 with 0 likes

    Maybe it is. I would just like to see an argument, that's all.

  1109. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:03:00 with 0 likes

    THen best begin yourself, and not hurl insults maybe, no?

  1110. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:03:00 with 1 likes

    are you really John, and Daniel) going to make us scroll *all* the way up to the quote on metaphysical? Really? My eternal return of the same circle only goes clockwise.....

  1111. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:04:00 with 0 likes

    Nina Rachele "[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9

  1112. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 0 likes

    My response: Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.

  1113. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 0 likes

    Great. You say that this is absurd, John. Why?

  1114. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:05:00 with 2 likes

    Re theses: Didn't Rebecca Loop come back and give her thesis "On Exemplary Causality in the First Being" as a lecture to the college? A version of it was published in The Aquinas Review (1998), iirc. Anyone have a copy of it?

  1115. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:06:00 with 1 likes

    John, that is an interesting point you make.

  1116. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:06:00 with 0 likes

    how about: when was "metaphysical" "mere analysis"?

  1117. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:07:00 with 1 likes

    It is not clear to me what he means by metaphysical.

  1118. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 0 likes

    he says "mere analysis of the idea contemplated"

  1119. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 1 likes

    which to me would be quasi-nominalist.....

  1120. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 1 likes

    In this context, he says that. I am not sure that we should put too much weight on that as an exhaustive account.

  1121. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:08:00 with 3 likes

    Also, Rebecca's thesis was the only one of which I'm aware that was awarded by TAC a higher honor than double distinction--namely publication in TAC's in house journal.

  1122. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes

    Caldwell High School 4-evah!

  1123. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 2 likes

    The basic question right now is whether Newman's nominalism (if we can call it that) negates the legitimacy of his thesis on metaphysical developments in Christian doctrine? Is that right?

  1124. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes

    It does require reading more of what Newman says. I thought that Joshua's commentary was pretty revealing. Again, I'm most familiar with Newman's "idea" (and indeed what does that mean given his notions of idea?) of a university. He was acclaimed the great orator of his day, but is unimpressive -- not just my judgment but others better than I who even agree with his development and stand on infallibility.

  1125. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:09:00 with 0 likes

    no Nina

  1126. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:10:00 with 0 likes

    It's just that every quote of Newman in the last 200 comments, does not stand up to scrutiny.

  1127. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:10:00 with 1 likes

    Woops, waited too long to post ::twiddles fingers::

  1128. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:11:00 with 0 likes

    So what are the requirements re theses? Double D?

  1129. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:12:00 with 3 likes

    The comments in Pater Edmund's "Unwritten Tradition" are, I think, illuminating on just how concerning Newman's nominalism or near nominalism or confusion w/r/t Universals ought to be. I find it very comforting that Newman apparently said things like "[T]here is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered."
    With that said, I'm no Newman scholar myself, so I'll sit back and listen to my betters.

  1130. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T11:13:00 with 4 likes

    I am not ready to condemn Newman as a nominalist. It is not clear to me how clear he was on philosophy at all.

  1131. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:15:00 with 0 likes

    And I am ready to lift mine if someone show a good argument to the contrary. I just see that Newman opened a can of worms. I'm still trying to find Pater Edmund's link...........

  1132. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:16:00 with 2 likes

    Matthew, no special requirements; they just have to be really good.

  1133. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:17:00 with 1 likes

    To be clear, I'm not condemning Newman. He appears to be at least close to nominalism at times, but again, I'm no Newman scholar, or anything scholar really!

  1134. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:18:00 with 3 likes

    John Ruplinger, here's the link (pp.84-99): http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...
    Newman's Apologia and the Drama of Faith and Reason - Draft5
    www.scribd.com
    Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.

  1135. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:21:00 with 0 likes

    see.................... I don't respect sacred cows of the present moment. Countless old doctors of the Church are treated like spittoons. I'm not even spitting

  1136. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:18:00 with 0 likes

    Double D would be the norm, I'd imagine (or at least distinction for the written part). Didn't they used to give theses letter grades? I recall Kolbeck telling me he changed that to pass/fail/distinction while he was dean.

  1137. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:19:00 with 2 likes

    Oh, but you must respect sacred cows! Nostra Aetate!

  1138. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:19:00 with 0 likes

    What is the question we are currently answering, if what I stated above is not the question? Unless we have just gone straight into talking about Newman's thought generally speaking, which I admit I am not qualified to do.

  1139. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:20:00 with 5 likes

    Whether one must respect sacred cows.

  1140. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T11:21:00 with 4 likes

    Nina Rachele, We are each of us talking about our own pet topics, as our minds each flit from one to the next. Discourse and dialogue were right out almost from the start.

  1141. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:22:00 with 1 likes

    It seems that one should not respect sacred cows, for as the philosopher says....

  1142. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:23:00 with 4 likes

    Oh, Ryan Burke, I didn't include your thesis on why my thesis is wrong. So I guess that's another rule: no republicanism.

  1143. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:25:00 with 1 likes

    What can I say... old habits die hard...

  1144. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T11:30:00 with 0 likes

    see you later., perhaps. and I got that doc downloaded this time. Maybe I read a different one.

  1145. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:32:00 with 2 likes

    Mine was a double D in defense of Beauty that was what I took to be St. Thomas wrapped at start and end with winged words. The goal was to seriously defend Beauty as transcendental-ish without falling into the sort of aesthetic flummery that is increasing prevalent today (you could see it already present and coming on strong), and without being a rationalist Neanderthal.
    Mrs. Gustin said it was the best thesis she ever read - but, of course, for many people this was the equivalent to a condemnation...

  1146. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:31:00 with 1 likes

    I blame Pater Edmund... he totally derailed this convo

  1147. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T11:32:00 with 3 likes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRJ38y4Jn6k
    Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( It's Over, Go Home [ Ending ])
    Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( Movie Clip: " It's Over, Go Home " [ Ending ])

  1148. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T11:34:00 with 4 likes

    well, we were about to put Newman on the index, and then Pater Edmund has to go and collect a list of things that go on the Pope Perescott index.....

  1149. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:38:00 with 3 likes

    But actually Ruplinger, the one Joel cited was this: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/
    Unwritten Tradition
    sancrucensis.wordpress.com
    Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the indispensable pdf of Denzinger-Hünermann, I was struck by how often they use some variation on ...

  1150. Ryan Burke at 2014-08-22T11:47:00 with 2 likes

    To be fair, Pater Edmund, my thesis has borne up less well than past me thought it would. Also to be fair, your thesis was written to prove me wrong, rather than vice versa, as I recall

  1151. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T11:48:00 with 0 likes

    Tim Furlan, what was your thesis called?

  1152. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T11:52:00 with 0 likes

    Would it be textbook based or a selection of primary sources?

  1153. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T11:53:00 with 3 likes

    Tim's was called
    "Brilliant, but loooong..."

  1154. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:00:00 with 0 likes

    yeah. 2 different links

  1155. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:12:00 with 0 likes

    the ordinary, or extraordinary, or Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?

  1156. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:15:00 with 1 likes

    Would the primary sources be presented in their entirety, with one author studied at a time, or would (for example) multiple authors be presented on a single topic?

  1157. John Kunz at 2014-08-22T12:16:00 with 6 likes

    1200. Laughable. Not worth a discussion until this thread hits at least 1500.

  1158. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:17:00 with 3 likes

    I'm still holding out hope for perfection: 8128

  1159. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:20:00 with 1 likes

    but I would like an answer as to which "magisterium" we're talking about. Distinguo distinguo distinguo

  1160. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:21:00 with 0 likes

    Principally the data presented by the extraordinary magisterium. This is really necessary for subsequent theological inquiry in the areas of faith and morals, and the examination of parts of the Summa, the principle writing of the doctors through the Reformation, and to present. This is not that difficult.

  1161. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:22:00 with 1 likes

    what if the extraordinary magisterium tells us to study the Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?

  1162. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:24:00 with 1 likes

    So, by extraordinary magisterium, you mean church councils? Is that correct?

  1163. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:25:00 with 1 likes

    Pater, at page 40 and looking for the pertinant point

  1164. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 2 likes

    Pater, you owe me a decade of the rosary for slogging through your reasonable summary of the last 500 years of philosophy.

  1165. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 1 likes

    The question of "development of doctrine" is what development means, of course, and not whether or not it happens from a human point of view, or whether or not it happens in extremely messy ways and to radical extents, often in reaction to vehement disagreements regarding specific policies, etc.
    We don't need Newman or other names to discuss how doctrine develops.

  1166. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:28:00 with 0 likes

    Then we would have to do it.

  1167. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:29:00 with 0 likes

    nice. I caught that red herring.

  1168. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:30:00 with 1 likes

    newman is on trial. His books must burn

  1169. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T12:32:00 with 0 likes

    i agree. MP. But investigating newman, helps. We can say what it is not.

  1170. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:32:00 with 0 likes

    Peterson, there you go all irresponsibly thinking you can determine if doctrine develops or not.

  1171. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:33:00 with 0 likes

    I think what we are trying to do here is help the student develop a theological habit of mind. This involves assent to stuff we cannot know by reason. And also a sense of how the Church examines these issues as part of a theology, certainly in light of Scripture and history, and how She comes to make true statements worthy of belief. There is a theology at work here, and students in a four year Catholic college can be introduced to it in a way that is good in itself and also lays the groundwork for future studies in theology.

  1172. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T12:33:00 with 1 likes

    Yeah - let's do that then. How are Newman's definitions that Nina Rachele posted wrong?

  1173. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T12:34:00 with 1 likes

    First of all, Newman's idea of metaphysical development seems to lack any metaphysics\

  1174. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T12:41:00 with 0 likes

    Mr. PB Scott: Would your objections to the TAC curriculum be removed if all (or most) of the major councils were included? Or is your real objection to the seminar method itself?

  1175. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T12:51:00 with 0 likes

    He wants the Catechism. (And no seminar method)

  1176. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T12:54:00 with 0 likes

    I have no objection to the seminar method. It is the best. There are 400+ major doctrines of the Church. They came from somewhere. Students need to get a sense of how they came to be in the "mind" of the Church, so to speak; and the reasonability of doctrine, and the theological process of mind that underscores things worthy of belief. This is not a philosophical habit of mind, which TAC is really good at. This is different than that, and this requires a special regimen. Certainly some of the councils would be useful, but the main thing are the theological principles which came from the councils, and Sacred Scripture, and how the Church and Her principle theologians have supported those in their thinking over the years.

  1177. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:00:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, that is a complete misrepresentation of my beliefs. I am puzzled and a bit shocked by your assertion. It is not true. Please see my comment immediately above.

  1178. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:01:00 with 1 likes

    Adding my sister, Lucy Nolan's thesis on the Brother's K.

  1179. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T13:10:00 with 2 likes

    Perescott seems to be saying a whole bunch of nothing

  1180. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:12:00 with 2 likes

    Here's a snip from John Senior's polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture:
    «In this crucial respect of finality the curriculum at some Catholic colleges is superior to the older secular programs they are modeled on; but even so it would be wise for the Thomist philosophers among them to recall the Scholastic dictum that means must be proportionate to ends. The seminar as a means of learning purports to be a dialectic process derived from the Socratic dialogues. Even if this were so–which a glance at Plato’s text proves false, and even if there were students prepared for such a course–which a glance at their reading habits proves ridiculous, but even if there were such a dialectic and such students, without the formal lecture and professors who draw not just the questions but the right answers out, these seminars slide down into bull-sessions in which the strongest bull or the most artful dodger wins; and if such sessions become habitual, they result in arrogant skepticism, which is where Plato’s Academy ended. Students need systematic exposition of ideas and hard, daily practice of logical disputation under the controlled conditions of real debate; and, without years of training in gymnastics, music, poetry, art, history, and in manners, morals and religion, which used to be supplied by Christian homes and schools, the exchange of opinion in Great Books seminars encourages the very sophistry Socrates gave his life to combat. The student learns a critical method with which to demolish the ideas of others without having grasped any reality in the ideas at all and worst of all, if he has failed in the meantime to master his appetites and temperament–if he is weak, impatient, malicious, sensuous or indolent–with such critical weapons he is well on his way to Vanity Fair, where you get a Ph.D. and tenure.
    The ancients distinguished four degrees of knowledge: the poetic, where truths are grasped intuitively as when you trust another’s love; the rhetorical, where we are persuaded by evidence, but without conclusive proof, admitting that we might be wrong, as when we vote for a political candidate; next the dialectical mode in which we conclude to one of two opposing arguments beyond a reasonable doubt, with the kind of evidence sufficient for conviction in a law court or in a laboratory testing to certify a drug for human use; and finally, in the scientific mode–science in the ancient and not the modern sense which is dialectical and rhetorical, but science as epistamai–we reach to absolute certitude as when we know the whole is greater than the part, that motion presupposes agency or know obvious facts such as Cuba is an island because we sailed around it. Each of these degrees has its appropriate faculties: poetry, memorization and imaginative play; rhetoric, precept and practice; dialectic, scholastic disputation and laboratory experiment; science, systematic exposition. But where does “class discussion” come in? Well, it isn’t on the list at all, and not because the ancients didn’t think of it, but because they rejected it. »

  1181. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:15:00 with 0 likes

    The Catholic college needs to be positive in its understanding of the principle theological teachings of the Catholic church, and the theological basis of the Faith. The Catholic college cannot stand only on a metaphysical examination of the Faith. The best way to study theology is the Socratic method because the development of doctrine is principally a historical-dialectical process. But the principle teachings of Faith must be presented in a positive way in a Catholic college. This is necessary not only for catechesis, but also absolutely necessary for the theological inquiry and conversation.

  1182. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:18:00 with 0 likes

    Is there an online copy of the whole of Senior's polemic contra TAC?

  1183. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:18:00 with 0 likes

    You guys are really a bunch of arrogant jerks. It is necessary for the Catholic college to understand the theological basis of what we believe. This is a theological inquiry, not a philosophical one.
    You do not seem to be capable of even understanding this.

  1184. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:19:00 with 1 likes

    If you can't think logically how are you going to get all that greatness out of the documents? Especially the newer ones which are not written as clearly? Isn't that how we have people using a document to support their position when their position is torn apart two paragraphs later in the same document?

  1185. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:19:00 with 0 likes

    TAC is in crisis. I will let you pigs figure it out.

  1186. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:21:00 with 4 likes

    What a charmer!

  1187. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:22:00 with 0 likes

    In an idealized theological course of study, would every class cover a different doctrine and its support? Or for example, would a council be read, and then say the full works of three or four theologians of the time who supported it? Edit: assuming each class is still taught under the seminar method

  1188. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:24:00 with 3 likes

    https://www.facebook.com/.../tac-the.../582559135127560...
    TAC, the Magisterium and The lights of Faith and Reason
    On August 2 I provoked a very long thread that started with this quote from a friend, Scott Weinberg, critical of TAC. "From all I have been told on this subject, it seems to me that what the Chur
    By: Richard Delahide Ferrier

  1189. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:25:00 with 0 likes

    ^link isn't working?

  1190. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:26:00 with 1 likes

    oh, I think it's because I'm not friends with Dr. Ferrier.

  1191. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:26:00 with 0 likes

    I'm tired of your arrogant barbs, silly jokes, idiotic statements. So many TACers are incapable... Lauren and Nina, your comments are disingenuous. Maintain the logical basis. Present Faith positively, or lose it and your audience.

  1192. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:27:00 with 0 likes

    You're not friends with Dr Ferrier???? oh... I'm not either...

  1193. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:27:00 with 3 likes

    ? All I've been doing is asking questions.

  1194. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:28:00 with 0 likes

    No, I never had him as a tutor unfortunately...think I had him for an all-school once maybe...

  1195. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:28:00 with 0 likes

    Joel HF, no free version, but it's on Kindle.

  1196. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:29:00 with 4 likes

    Ok. I have refused to engage you, O Foolish Troll, but you cross the line when you insult women. Go away, Scott. Now.

  1197. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:30:00 with 3 likes

    If you were here I would punch you. Hard. And I am really good at punching.

  1198. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:30:00 with 1 likes

    Mr. PB Scott, if you have just been describing one school's particular curriculum, then just go ahead and send me a link, you don't need to waste your time with an explanation.

  1199. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:31:00 with 0 likes

    There's no such thing as an ideal theological course. Are you actually asking if only one doctrine would be covered per class in an undergraduate theology class? Is this a serious question?

  1200. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 0 likes

    You keep saying things, but practically what would those things look like at a "real" Catholic school. I think that's all we are asking .

  1201. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Well, yes. I assumed we were discussing what the ideal theological course was and why TAC did not look like that ideal.

  1202. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Nina, I would not waste your time. He is not interested in real discourse. I know.

  1203. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Nina, I do think I have been wasting my time discussing this with you.

  1204. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 1 likes

    More places where this has been gone over in detail (1): https://www.facebook.com/richa.../posts/10151881807463949...
    Richard Delahide Ferrier
    From a TAC alum, and Christendom grad. I would love to see many comments.

  1205. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 0 likes

    Like I said. He is sniveling prig.

  1206. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 1 likes

    and (2): https://www.facebook.com/notes/sean-collins/on-some-questions-about-teaching-catholic-doctrine/10151799390270960
    On Some Questions About Teaching "Catholic Doctrine"
    Richard Delahide Ferrier suggests we go to bed ... reasonable enough, except that I'm a night owl, and this looks like my chance to jump into a very interesting conversation that I didn't know about b
    By: Sean Collins

  1207. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:33:00 with 3 likes

    Well, I for my part have learned quite a bit.

  1208. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 2 likes

    ^good, I can read that one

  1209. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes

    Count your blessings, John.

  1210. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes

    Wear it like a badge of honour John

  1211. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 1 likes

    Just what I was thinking Nina!

  1212. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:34:00 with 0 likes

    And Nina, those other places will witness to my patience and forbearance with regard to the troll.

  1213. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-22T13:35:00 with 3 likes

    As I said above, I will always be grateful to the Peregrine for provoking these discussions.

  1214. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:35:00 with 2 likes

    Can we get back to Newman now, please?

  1215. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 2 likes

    Pater Edmund is dragging up old memories there with the Ferrier thread. But yes, we had some good discoveries even then.

  1216. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 5 likes

    Befriend Richard Delahide Ferrier all - and read that note and the comments.

  1217. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:36:00 with 1 likes

    Does anyone agree with me that an inquiry of sacred theology is different than a metaphysical inquiry? Does anyone agree that a theological inquiry relates intrinsically to what the Church promulgates as worthy of belief? Does anyone agree with me that this is not mere catechesis? Does anyone agree that Catholic theology in a Catholic college should include this? does anyone maintain that TAC does this? If, explain how. Please, no more idiocy.

  1218. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T13:39:00 with 1 likes

    Sadly, Pater Edmund, Scott's credibility is bankrupt. His initial questions are interesting and important. It is the follow-up that is the problem.

  1219. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:42:00 with 0 likes

    In a Catholic college, when you teach theology, you need a positive presentation of the doctrines of the Faith, and the theological basis of these doctrines or principles. This is how theology is taught in most Catholic colleges. You could do this easily at TAC, in seminar. This is not advocacy against the seminar method, or for catechesis.
    Do you see this?
    Is this "worthy of discourse" for you?

  1220. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:48:00 with 1 likes

    In charity, Daniel, I think Scott has burdens and crosses to bear irl, and as such cannot be treated as one would treat a man sound of mind and body who acted thus.

  1221. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T13:49:00 with 3 likes

    Pater Edmund thank you for linking that Ferrier thread, it is very interesting so far...

  1222. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:53:00 with 0 likes

    Joel, you're a jerk. Best of luck to you arrogant Catholics from TAC.

  1223. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T13:56:00 with 1 likes

    I love how barely making it through the program lumps me with all the brilliant minds that came out of TAC. How long do you have to attend for this label to be present? (Obviously this is not a serious question, but merely a musing)

  1224. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:57:00 with 0 likes

    Your arrogance is proof of your lack of theological formation.

  1225. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T13:58:00 with 0 likes

    Brilliant minds?

  1226. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T13:59:00 with 2 likes

    Though I do enjoy poking fun, I didn't mean to insult with my last comment, actually. I too am grateful to Scott for provoking the original threads, though he needn't be quite so provoking, in my view. Still I dont think dialogue is possible at this point, not when insults fly quite so readily. But dialogue is hardly the point of the thread, is it?

  1227. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T14:01:00 with 0 likes

    Dr. Waldstein came to mind when I made that comment.

  1228. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:02:00 with 2 likes

    I still have honest questions about what "theological inquiry" is. and "theological basis" and "theological principles"
    Help me out Perescottgrinebonawienventureburg

  1229. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-22T14:04:00 with 3 likes

    Need to get ready for work... I expect plenty of new insights about Newman when I get back here....

  1230. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:09:00 with 2 likes

    I'm at work. I call it "multi-trolling"

  1231. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:21:00 with 1 likes

    except I always come back to the same thing: I need to know what sort of principles, inquiry and basis is (theologically speaking) in order that I can honestly answer (to the best of my abilities) whatever the hell Scott is talking about.

  1232. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T14:30:00 with 12 likes

    Stefon: "Facebook’s hottest thread is Peterson’s Never-ending Thread. This thread has it all: pseudonymous trolls demanding magesterium, fake thesis titles, Newman debates, trolling, reverse-trolling, collections of real theses, Monks, hipster protestants, rad trads, and neo caths."

  1233. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:32:00 with 1 likes

    YAY! Stefon lives!

  1234. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:33:00 with 3 likes

    reverse trolling! LOL! but there should be some mention of midgets doing something unseemly

  1235. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T14:43:00 with 1 likes

    hey! I'm short, but not that short!

  1236. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-22T14:46:00 with 2 likes

    "A human fanny pack? What's that?" "It's that thing of where a midget hangs around your waist and you keep your passport in his mouth"

  1237. Joel HF at 2014-08-22T14:53:00 with 4 likes

    "A magesteri-midget? It's that thing, where you get a midget to follow you around and shout abuse about how you don't follow the true magesterium."

  1238. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-22T15:08:00 with 1 likes

    Thank you the kind-hearted rebuke Joel. I fell into the trap of taking a troll seriously.

  1239. Sean Plus at 2014-08-22T15:22:00 with 0 likes

    Anne Schniederjan I know what this thread needs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKZJp-x-Dc
    Jay Ferguson ~ Thunder Island
    a song of Jay's i like made video because was no good studio version on video ...enjoy

  1240. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T15:29:00 with 4 likes

    the sad thing is that he brings up things worth talking about.....and then spins in circles before the insults come out.
    At TAC we learned the proper order of things. Insult first.

  1241. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-22T17:12:00 with 0 likes

    TAC is a heresy factory. It is named after Saint Thomas Aquinas, and claims to teach under the Magisterium, but is confused about sacred theology, how you teach it, if you should teach it, what it is, and what it's for, etc. It replaces metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology, and its alum teach things like reason enlightens faith. This is formal and material heresy.

  1242. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T17:13:00 with 2 likes

    I wish you would be more clear, and less pugnacious.

  1243. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T17:20:00 with 8 likes

    "TAC is a heresy factory"=best quote of the week.

  1244. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T17:21:00 with 1 likes

    A lot of the class of 2014 wrote on Contemplation this year! Wow! I didn't notice that at graduation!

  1245. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-22T17:28:00 with 6 likes

    Andrews "TAC is a heresy factory"
    *******************************
    Just because everyone discovers in Sophomore year that they are semi-pelagian...

  1246. Anthony Crifasi at 2014-08-22T17:41:00 with 4 likes

    I'm pouring a bucket of ice on my own head just for that quote alone.

  1247. Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T17:52:00 with 3 likes

    This conversation thread is making my head spin, probably because every time I see it there are around 200 additional comments.

  1248. Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T17:55:00 with 5 likes

    Not sure why, but "TAC is a heresy factory" just made me laugh so hard I snorted. And that's my last frivolous comment for now.

  1249. Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-22T18:27:00 with 4 likes

    The only questionable comment I can recall was the blue book stating that graduating from the college was a sign of predestination. Hardly qualifies the college as a heresy factory.

  1250. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T18:35:00 with 1 likes

    Kurt, I have to thank Christendom College. Erin visited there when she was in high school.

  1251. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T19:19:00 with 2 likes

    if TAC is a heresy factory, why am i alone excommunicated?

  1252. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T20:51:00 with 3 likes

    Heresy open bar?

  1253. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-22T21:05:00 with 3 likes

    Heresy tapas bar.

  1254. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T21:11:00 with 4 likes

    heresy salad bar

  1255. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-22T21:12:00 with 5 likes

    What does it say about our moral sense that the only thesis on ethics in the proposed theses doc is about torture, and not contra torture either?

  1256. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-22T21:16:00 with 4 likes

    OK, just to make things weirder:
    There's a Muslim college in Berkeley, California inspired by TAC, in part. The founders are big fans of TAC.
    And no, the name is not The Averroist College!

  1257. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-22T21:27:00 with 1 likes

    Is the "heresy factory" a quote from the Blue Book? (or is this a new addition?)

  1258. Rebecca Bratten at 2014-08-22T21:36:00 with 4 likes

    Weiss Well, TAC grads create longer threads than FUS grads do....
    But the FUS threads are dirtier.

  1259. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:43:00 with 2 likes

    Catherine Ryland: Modernist!

  1260. Susan Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:48:00 with 2 likes

    Mr. Bonaventure, In seminar, one discusses a text. It is not a setting for the presentation of someone elses conclusions. A tutorial would be closer to the setting for the kind of thing you are discussing. I am a St. Johnnie, not a TAC grad, so I don't know exactly what they do there, but if it is anything like St. John's, even in tutorial there is a spirit of inquiry. The texts would still be "great books", not a "textbook" and students would still be wrestling with the words of the writer. I would imagine that there would be some guidance from the tutor, which might at times include information about how various understandings of a work fit with doctrine. Why can't you just accept that different schools have different goals and methods, and choose to prefer the one you prefer, without haunting the threads of alumni of another college?

  1261. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T21:48:00 with 1 likes

    well. I finisned pater's mostly fine piece and the chapter on illative sense. Lots to say ....

  1262. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:49:00 with 1 likes

    Actually I think TAC is mixed on the torture debates, and probably most against. It is mixed about America as well.
    But, of course, many at TAC think the Ethics are "easy" and "lowly" compared to the more difficult and noble and important and lofty natural philosophy and metaphysics...

  1263. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-22T21:50:00 with 0 likes

    It would be "selling out to do a thesis on Ethics. Still, many of these seem related, at least.

  1264. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T21:51:00 with 0 likes

    hope it helps. Later...

  1265. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-22T21:53:00 with 2 likes

    Ethics is boring... Well actually I think it was just more intuitive than motion for me. . .

  1266. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T21:57:00 with 3 likes

    Unlike some of you people, I have a job! Sheesh...
    In response to Pater Edmund, I started reading your link, and was quickly disappointed in the shallowness of assertions. Top of pg. 85, "Knowledge of things is not caused by their ideal forms, but by contemplating the thingsthemselves, or abstracting universals from them; it is founded, in a word, on experience."
    And where on earth is that in Newman? Oh, no where. In fact, that is rejected quite expressly by him. He quotes Newman, from one of the same passages I quoted, but leaves out what he says about such generalizations.
    I would certainly not call Newman the most radical nominalist. Any barely coherent nominalist epistemology has to have some version of a correspondence theory, resemblance, etc. But what is clear is that the "abstract" generalizations, for Newman, can only give us "probabilities" about concrete things. But he is interested in "concrete truths" so these universals, whatever role they may play, become irrelevant in knowing reality. He is extremely clear about that. That is not Aristotelian. And it sure as heck is not Platonist.
    " The Grammar of Assent is relentlessly Aristotelian from start to finish"
    I am sorry, but the more I read, the more I find there to be no argument, just assertions. Newman is not a Platonist because he waxed poetical.
    And because he avers to Aristotle, so what? So did some of the greatest nominalists such of Ockham.
    The only mention of universals in the Grammar I again already quoted. Where he mocks logic, as "dressing up middle terms" and proceeds to dismiss the search for universals, since that is not about the real, but the notional...not the concrete facts (that is all he cares about), but the abstract.
    And there is only one other place, outside of unpublished notes (of which I post parts of one that show he had trouble, to his credit by his own admission, understanding the whole dispute!). That is here: in a comment following this one

  1267. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-22T22:03:00 with 3 likes

    are we back to Newman?

  1268. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:21:00 with 2 likes

    "A very difficult question arises whether the subject of ideas comes directly into the province of Logic. Or in other words, whether names or terms stand for ideas or for things. It will be said that ideas and things go together, and therefore the question is unimportant ~ but there is the case in which there is, or is imagined, an idea without a thing, that is, the case of Universals.
    Accordingly those then on the side of Things against Ideas, say that there are not universal ideas; and a controversy ensues which is nothing else than a portion of the old scholastic controversy, between the Nominalists, Realists, and Conceptionists."
    Actually I tire of typing it out. I will summarize, in this passage he does say that a) he tends to agree with the Catholics in holding universals. b) but the onus of proof is on them c) and then he gives some lengthy unclear examples, and ends in saying that there are two types of universals. His examples are all about particulars. "and taking that question [whether Caesar refers to the thing or the idea] away, it certainly does seem more simple and natural to say the words stand for the things."
    Heck he seems not to grasp what is meant by universal, in phrasing the question as he does (whether Caesar, a particular, refers to the man or the idea of Caesar). He ends arguing that it refers to the thing. Unless it is abstract. His examples of abstract versus ratio pura universals are "man is a rational animal" and "the whole is greater than the part" The latter is the only he accepts for reasoning, and his examples are all mathematical. The latter, again, only gives "probability" about concrete things.
    We might recall that for Aquinas the universal is something that is attached to the essence as it exists in the mind, as an image with a likeness to many subjects. You could say Newman holds the same about his ideas corresponding to things, but where it becomes nominalist is that it becomes a mere generalization, not a universal truth, which is why we cannot know that Socrates is mortal just because he is a man and man is mortal. We have to know the "units" That is where real knowledge is for Newman.
    cf. Lecture on Logic, Jan/Feb 1859

  1269. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:22:00 with 3 likes

    Mr. Beitia, sorry, after less than a full night sleep and then a long day of work, I see Lendman asked for my response to Pater Edmund's link. So I obliged in spite of the intervening comments.

  1270. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:28:00 with 1 likes

    That said, I will go back and read more carefully the linked essay, lest I too readily dismissed it. I should have the time to do that sometime in 2015 (hey too much to do)....I only read snippets, and what seemed as assertions might substantiated later....

  1271. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:47:00 with 1 likes

    I have a number of observations about Pater Edmund's thesis (130 pages). It's a worthwhile read. In particular, my thesis that nominalism invites immanentism, he seems to confirm. It's only when he enters into Newman's epitstemology and development of doctrine (p. 84) that I start to disagree.
    I second Joshua's comment about Newman's "Aristotelian" leanings. Just because Newman claims to be Aristotelian (p. 85) doesn't make it so: that would mean Ayn Rand is Aristotelian also.
    There is a mistake in Pater's interpretation of Newman on p. 91 in the confused notion of real vs. notional apprehension. The boy's apprehension is notional when reading the poet's real apprehension. He may change it elsewhere.

  1272. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:05:00 with 0 likes

    Suffice it to say that the contradictions apparent in Pater's statements from Newman (contradictions in quotes by Pater Edmund of Newman) finally led me to open his Grammar of Assent, which seems so tedious. Instead of begin at the beginning, I tried finding some distinctions at first in chapter three, but was so confused by the apparent absurdity of distinctions that I read Maritain's introduction. Maritain assures the reader that the book is about Newman's coming to grips with assent to the truths of the Faith and that most interpretations are incorrect. I then proceeded to look at chapter nine to try and figure out what illative sense might mean.

  1273. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:51:00 with 0 likes

    What is clear beyond doubt is that his is a very precisely crafted esoteric work, and I recommend a careful reading of chapter nine on illative sense. Now that I see what he is doing in that chapter the rest will be clearer. The chapter itself really almost stands entirely on its own.

  1274. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:52:00 with 0 likes

    What is strange is that he doesn't really define illative sense (and why I had so much trouble trying to find definitions and distinctions earlier) until the second last page and the last sentence is quite a douzy.

  1275. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:52:00 with 0 likes

    You've been warned. There be dark waters there.

  1276. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:55:00 with 0 likes

    If he be Aristotelian, it is in an esoteric sense only. In the chapter alone, he rejects the logic both subtly and (I believe) explicitly. He delineates also a very hard core nominalism (a la Hobbes, wherefore the word "sense")

  1277. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-22T22:57:00 with 3 likes

    To be honest it was more the tediousness of the work than any position he took that turned me off from Newman....I read it before going to TAC too....I found it so tedious, I decided to read Aristotle and found him crystal clear in comparison...it gave me a leg up when I later went to TAC...
    Mr. Ruplinger has more patience than I to be digging back into the text that much!

  1278. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:58:00 with 0 likes

    No I actually cracked the book several times before and just closed it. I have thought I should probably look at it some time and this was the final motive.

  1279. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T22:59:00 with 0 likes

    LIS, ch. 9 to me is a bit clearer. I can say a lot about if anyone is interested. I certainly haven't mined everything there, but Newman has a reason for everything he writes. It's just a matter of unraveling all the apparent contradictions and figuring out what he's getting at.

  1280. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:38:00 with 0 likes

    I'll can give some whopper quotes. But I'll begin with what illative sense is: "moral instinct" or "happy augury" (or something more deliberative perhaps). That seems to be the ultimate source of illative sense as PRINCIPLES: they are founded upon this "divining". In fact illative sense seems to me to be logic as he denigrates it. HIs last sentence is "And in all these delicate questions there is constant call for the exercise of the Illative Sense." Rereading it one realizes that he is uses Newman's (that is his own specially divined) illative sense in describing aspects (not it's nature) of illative sense at the end of section two. To be PRECISE, Illative Sense seems to be logic, but especially the grasping of our assumptions and how we come by them (only secondarily and in HIS sense, does he refer to demonstration which he restricts to elements of mathematical calculus). His third section is pretty devastating (or it seems merely to tell the truth) to any ability for agreement. All reasoning is profoundly solopsic (or so he says

  1281. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:13:00 with 1 likes

    The first section on "Sanction" of illative sense: as it turns out is one's own self. Man is his own sanction, idiosyncratic man, and none else. Thus sanction is the "authority" of one's assumptions. Nothing outside himself. He begins in almost Cartesian fashion. But let the reader decide for himself what Newman says. This section proceeds strangely with several apparent contradictory sentences like “desire to change laws which are identical with myself.” Indeed, it seems that he subtly reasserting Hobbesian nature and right. Again he says of human nature, “it is his gift to be the creator of his own sufficiency; and to be emphatically self-made.” Newman doesn't spare here an idle word, even the first use of “his”.

  1282. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:18:00 with 0 likes

    ...... So how does such a nominalist expect anyone to understand him, especially when Newman by the end of the chapter leads us to despair even of the posibility of communication or at least agreement? It is inconsistent. More over his statement of man being self-made, isn't that another act of illative sense which he derides at the end. Or is the last sentence of the entire chapter what he is using even right here? But he says to confirm that what is certain is what me myself and I say is certain, “there is no ultimate test of truth besides the testimony born to truth BY THE MIND ITSELF”. And I am not misquoting him. These seem to be his main points. MOREOVER, he refers to Bacon as “our own English philosopher” and later refers several ways and defers to him again and again. “Knowledge is power, for it enables us to use eternal principles which we cannot alter.” And then a derisory, as I take it, comment on all matters unBaconian: “materials in due measure of proof and assent” are apposite “abundant matter for mere opinion”. And so I take it that proof and assent are merely idle speculation, as a kind of relaxing recreation if not overindulged in (but in "due measure"). To be clear, all speculation is what he is talking about here.

  1283. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:20:00 with 0 likes

    Sections two and three are even more interesting.

  1284. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:28:00 with 1 likes

    Section two (supposedly on the NATURE of Illative Sense), he spends mostly on "parallel" phronesis and briefly fine arts but ends outlining "respects" (or perspective?) on its "nature and its claims:
    1. in itself: “one and the same in all concrete matters” ??? obscure to be sure. I really have little idea what he's talking about.
    2. in definite subject-matters: some possess it some but not others and in some things but not others (historian vs. philsopher, but earlier he had a number of things to say about his kind of "phronesis")
    3. in process: by a method of reasoning. But here “the elementary principle of that mathematical calculus of modern times”. Here he seems to be introducing HIS own illative sense of the ratiocinating aspect. Like Bacon, he would replace traditional logic with the new calculus. But this is never defined by Newman further, and is only mentioned here, whereas much of the rest of the time is spent diriding the blind "Illative Sense" of others it seems.
    4. function and scope: there is no “ultimate test of truth and error in our inferences besides the trustworthiness of the Illative Sense that gives them its sanction.” – it is because I assent. The authority of the test is in MY ASSENT and none else

  1285. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T23:42:00 with 0 likes

    Eric Hutchinson, fyi

  1286. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:42:00 with 0 likes

    Anyways, maybe I'll clean this all up. My notes and outline are considerably long. I'll pm Pater Edmund my observations on his work.

  1287. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-22T23:43:00 with 2 likes

    pm me too please

  1288. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-22T23:44:00 with 1 likes

    And don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what Pater Edmund wrote. It's very good.

  1289. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T02:23:00 with 3 likes

    Thank you Joshua for obliging me. Also, thank you, John for your thorough responses. Your position on Newman is now clear to my mind, and the texts you reference are compelling.

  1290. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T02:35:00 with 8 likes

    And just for anyone who might be outside the TAC community and reading this thread, we should make some things clear:
    1. Peregrine Bonaventure is a disgruntled troll, who ought not to be directly addressed. We are not being cruel, but we have all tried to engage him in the past to no good result.
    2. He raises good questions, but can't, or won't actually engage in coherent or thoughtful discourse.
    3. TAC is one of the few schools in the world that, a.) really is and passes on a 'school of thought, and b.) understands what Sacred Theology is.
    4.TAC does not confuse metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology. Rather, it understands that a thorough understanding of the philosophical disciplines enable the mind to more clearly and cogently consider the truths of the faith.
    5. Consequently, as a whole, its alumni do not teach things like "reason enlightens faith." Rather, the school as a whole teaches, together with the Church, that grace perfects nature, and faith perfects reason. However, that does not mean that faith supplants reason. Rather, we must have well developed reason, and then there is, as it were, more nature to be perfected.
    My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all.

  1291. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-23T04:03:00 with 4 likes

    There are those who, though misunderstanding something, seek the honest truth about it. Then there are those who, though convinced something is wrong, abide by the higher law of devotion to the truth when they are answered. Finally, there are those who, though unable to understand someone else who seemingly disagrees with them, will at least respect the goodness of their intentions. These three enable discussion.
    But there is a fourth sort of person that, assuming the other person is wrong for reasons other than what they say or believe, or even their tone, reasons inaccessible by discussion. To these people attempts to argue are not attempts to discuss, but to foment enmity against an opponent. Scott is such a person on this topic, his only topic, and it is not charity to enable the fomenting of schism by granting it a direct response or entertaining it as a serious discussion. If this thread should persist it is in spite of Scott, not because of him.

  1292. Tom Sundaram at 2014-08-23T04:05:00 with 1 likes

    Edit: first sentence, second paragraph: "...inaccessible by discussion, seeks to undermine some 'enemy' point."

  1293. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T05:22:00 with 5 likes

    I agree with Joshua Kenz on the faults of my Newman paper; my linking it here bordered on trolling. All the greater is my admiration for John Ruplinger plowing through the whole thing! I owe you more than a decade, sir; I'm offering Mass for your intentions.

  1294. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T05:53:00 with 2 likes

    On the theses volume front (https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...)
    I've added a section for proposals for titles for the whole volume. Proposals so far:
    Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College
    Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College
    Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs
    docs.google.com

  1295. Jason Van Boom at 2014-08-23T07:47:00 with 1 likes

    John Ruplinger PM me too, please.

  1296. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:03:00 with 1 likes

    on the road 7 hours. And a barn dance later. So til tomorrow. And thanks pater

  1297. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T11:11:00 with 0 likes

    uh oh.... this is dangerously close to petering out

  1298. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T11:16:00 with 2 likes

    hmm... Perhaps I should say something controversial.

  1299. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T11:20:00 with 0 likes

    I'll go ahead and say that with the exception of junior and (some) senior year, lab at TAC is a waste. It could be structured so much better. But I'm probably one of like three people who actually care about lab

  1300. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:36:00 with 2 likes

    dont worry. I am holding back on my nuclear option should be good for another 1000 comments

  1301. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T11:38:00 with 1 likes

    neverendin, baby.

  1302. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:42:00 with 3 likes

    'Natural Science,' as it is now called, is quite good the last two years. Sophomore year is important at least, but I had a tutor poorly suited for the class, and I hated it. Freshman year Lab is a dreadful waste of time for all concerned.

  1303. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:41:00 with 3 likes

    Fabre is overrated. There I said it.

  1304. Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T11:46:00 with 4 likes

    Dude, I loved Fabre! I found some of those readings to be amongst the most leisurely, wonderful, contemplative readings of the whole four years.

  1305. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-23T11:47:00 with 1 likes

    Freshman year lab was great! And really helped with giving people experience of the natural world before moving into DeAnima!

  1306. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T11:51:00 with 2 likes

    Freshman lab is Micky Mouse pablum. And we take, what, 12 classes of fabre to demonstrate that insects aren't intelligent? Snore.

  1307. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:02:00 with 6 likes

    I'll try to defend Freshman year lab too. If you're going to be (or are) a philosopher, or a natural scientist, or a theologian, or really anything, you need to learn from experience the importance of observation and reality. Then when you read Goethe or Harvey or Lavoisier or articles on wave theory or really anyone at all later on, you know from your own experience that they are basing their theories and work on careful observation. It's the difference between knowing something and KNOWING SOMETHING, just as you can know someone and know your spouse in entirely different ways.
    You are not stuck in your head with purely intellectual arguments forever and you see the relation between the "visible things of creation" and the theological treatises you are studying when you are forced to go outside to watch bees and ants or trap horrid beetles. You are thrilled by seeing Rev. Roy Axel Coats pop by your classroom window with a butterfly net and a jar of insects.
    You overcome whatever fear of arthropods you might have had and realize that the smallest, ugliest things of this world are part of the divine Dantean dance of love that moves the stars.
    Also I know that freshman lab, particularly the understanding of teleology, beginning to see that things act for an end rather than being an arbitrary collection of accidents, was one key part in the beginning of my friend's conversion post-TAC.

  1308. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T12:11:00 with 5 likes

    That's a beautiful defense, Catherine Ryland. I will say that I would respect the course a lot more if we read Darwin there, instead of relegating him to senior seminar.

  1309. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:15:00 with 2 likes

    Catherine Ryland, that might be true of some Platonic Idea of freshman lab; I don't know anyone whose experience was much like that though. And I came to TAC *wanting* that kind of thing (I had a strong background in natural history, and was much influenced by Goethe's approach to natural science)

  1310. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:18:00 with 1 likes

    mostly it was about fumbling with things and staring out the window and the highlight was when some doofus despite all warnings actually did ingnite "Substance D" or whatever that stuff was

  1311. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 3 likes

    My classmates tasted Substance D! (Wasn't that Pater Edmund?) And I think that was soph year.

  1312. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 0 likes

    !!!

  1313. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:19:00 with 3 likes

    talk about "KNOWING SOMETHING"

  1314. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T12:40:00 with 2 likes

    I think that was the point!
    I remember both loving and being bored to tears by Fabre (though not at the same time or in the same respect), and I agree with the idea of perhaps reading even a selection from Darwin freshman year -- it makes sense. But I am still grateful for having to slog through scientific articles (however outdated) like the gull mating article and the infrared snake vision article, since now I can get the gist of some scientific articles without being a trained scientist.
    And it was awe-inspiring to catch a living dragonfly and see its huge jewel-like eyes and watch the light and color go out of them completely when it sadly died. You understand substantial change much better (as Lauren points out re:the de Anima) even if you have never seen a person or a larger animal die before.
    I remember John Cunningham's astonishingly beautiful living-insect terrarium/bug collection and wishing I hadn't chloroformed or frozen all my bugs. I also remember being really upset when I found my bug partner had bought his quota of bugs from the TAC insect black market.
    That whole section of freshman lab was one of the highlights of the four years there.
    I would say that somehow that part of the curriculum also helped in understanding or accepting that some things are knowable as first principles.

  1315. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:47:00 with 2 likes

    I agree, in principle. And honestly TAC should pay you to use these reveries in the Admissions packets

  1316. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T12:48:00 with 6 likes

    now I'm wondering if Substance D gave Pater Edmund superpowers

  1317. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:16:00 with 1 likes

    Yes! Or perhaps he had brain cells to spare...
    I have plenty of things to tell the Admissions office and not all so cheerful. (To their credit, they warned me I needed more math, but I was too sanguine or too stubborn to believe just how much more I needed.) I've often said I'd like to start a PTACSD support group, since I've seen how many severely depressed people come out of there. Can't quite figure out why.
    The campus policy "don't date until 2nd semester Junior Year" advice was terrible, and I can't believe I went along with it. What they really needed to say was "just go out to coffee with everyone unless you don't want to. Don't worry about marriage and don't be serious at all at first, and if you'd rather not go out for coffee then don't." Some of us can't seem to figure this out on our own.
    I have other criticisms too.

  1318. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:04:00 with 0 likes

    Sophomore lab was a huge waste of time. I had AP chemistry in high school, so all the "experiments" in the lab double wide, were just poorly done imitations of what I had already known.
    Phlogiston? Really? I'm wasting my time with this? Maybe it should have been called: "The slow painful process of learning the history of Chemistry - to 1800" and that would have been more accurate. Neither of the tutors I had for Fresh/Soph lab were even the slightest bit interested (it seemed).

  1319. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:07:00 with 1 likes

    because we all know that matter is continuous and infinitely divisible, what's the point of studying "atom" and their discreteness, which is patently false, right? Lab before lunch, Aristotle's Physics with Berquist after lunch.... blah

  1320. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes

    Paul Babcock, what was it you said to Mr Berquist in that lab discussion? "It's not a #!**!@ fiction!!" ?

  1321. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes

    something like that

  1322. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:09:00 with 1 likes

    (re: atoms)

  1323. Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T13:11:00 with 2 likes

    Regarding PTACD, it took me a full year to surf my way back to sanity. (Not to mention going home to a very loving family.) Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for my experience there. But I am intrigued by this too.

  1324. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:17:00 with 2 likes

    Liam, this thread is really good evidence that "surfing your way back to sanity" isn't possible

  1325. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:18:00 with 0 likes

    Joel, they are changing the Lab tutorial now to include more discussion about evolution and Darwin, etc. I think electro-magnetism is all but out. Einstein is going to be moved to Senior Math (where he, apparently, was originally placed).

  1326. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:19:00 with 0 likes

    Mendel was in seminar when I went there. They moved him to freshman lab when I was a junior

  1327. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:20:00 with 3 likes

    They need to cut the SJC measurement manual out of the program entirely.

  1328. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:20:00 with 0 likes

    YES!
    and phlogiston

  1329. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes

    You guys missed the whole point.

  1330. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes

    ...I like thinking about measures...

  1331. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 3 likes

    But Pascal on the weight of the air is awesome.

  1332. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 0 likes

    ...and phlogiston.

  1333. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 0 likes

    What is the point of the measurement manual Catherine?

  1334. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 1 likes

    F*ck phlogiston

  1335. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:21:00 with 4 likes

    TAC wouldn't be TAC without phlogiston.

  1336. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 2 likes

    I agree with Catherine about the bug collection and Fabre though.

  1337. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 1 likes

    TAC wouldn't be TAC without non-being!?

  1338. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 5 likes

    But I'm against doing Darwin Freshman year because one hasn't done the Physics and the De Anima yet.

  1339. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:22:00 with 1 likes

    This is what I have come to later in life re: measurement. He who measures, wins.

  1340. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 3 likes

    I know I wasn't asked, but it seems to me that the question about measurement and what it means and how we know things through measures is a central theme that ran throughout the lab tutorials through the years.

  1341. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:25:00 with 0 likes

    re: Darwin: there's no problem reading it and remembering in the context of what you you learned freshman year.

  1342. Liam Collins at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 3 likes

    I didn't surf *the web* back to sanity, Beitia!

  1343. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:23:00 with 2 likes

    Yes, Daniel, I agree completely.

  1344. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:24:00 with 2 likes

    You can't have scientific inquiry (of a natural sort) without hefty doses of measurement. Look at all the astronomers.

  1345. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:25:00 with 2 likes

    Liam, the continuation of the thread is a strong argument that sanity is out the window. It caught fire because of phlogiston, and black bile, and all my messed up humours.

  1346. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 3 likes

    ^^ Oh, but this is the most interesting stuff in the world. (And I haven't even begun my more recent critiques of TAC AND the magisterium.)

  1347. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 0 likes

    waiting for a /sarc

  1348. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:26:00 with 1 likes

    I think they should let the Lab program come full circle so that second semester of senior year is Mendel and Darwin and genetics.

  1349. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes

    Yes! I love it.

  1350. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 1 likes

    Second semester of Freshman year could be Pascal on weight of air etc.

  1351. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes

    Nah, they should read Sir James Jeans, or Heisenberg on the philosophy of science

  1352. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 0 likes

    Or Poincare on Science and Method

  1353. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T13:27:00 with 3 likes

    heresy petri dish + substance D = ptacd troll . . . AKA . . .

  1354. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 1 likes

    Pater Edmund, I think that is the new plan. Or something like that.

  1355. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 4 likes

    Could we all just take a moment and go back to that comment where Catherine said that she agreed with me completely?

  1356. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:28:00 with 2 likes

    That way Galilleo could be read second semester of Sophomore year, which would be fitting.

  1357. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:30:00 with 5 likes

    Electro magnetism was a big fav of mine, so I'm sad to see it go. I wish they could go all the way and tackle quatuum mechanics.

  1358. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 2 likes

    They just drastically overhauled a semester of senior or junior science - I think senior - to deal specifically with evolution and end with St. Thomas on providence ("regardless, check THIS out at the end"). Sounded like a fantastic set of readings from Darwin on out laying out issues forthrightly. Dr. Kaiser was a big part of it.

  1359. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Just as long as they don't get rid of the light experiments. .

  1360. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Also how do you do Einstein without electro magnetism? Einstein is also all about measurement, but unlike freshman measurement manual, reading him is worthwhile.

  1361. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 1 likes

    Joel, I liked electro-magnetism as well. There just isn't enough time.

  1362. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:32:00 with 2 likes

    they dont do Goethe's light experiments, which is a huge fail

  1363. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:33:00 with 0 likes

    They should do Adolf Portmann Freshman year with the Fabre.

  1364. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 1 likes

    ^absolutely! and Uexkull

  1365. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 2 likes

    If anyone did not get the point of Soph lab you should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Periodic.../dp/188393771X
    The Mystery of the Periodic Table (Living History Library)
    www.amazon.com
    Leads the reader on a delightful and absorbing journey through the ages, on the trail of the elements of the Periodic Table as we know them today. He introduces the young reader to people like Von Helmont, Boyle, Stahl, Priestly, Cavendish, Lavoisier, and many others, all incredibly diverse in pe...

  1366. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:34:00 with 4 likes

    Pater I used to push for Portmann. To no avail

  1367. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:35:00 with 3 likes

    I had Berquist too and everyone fell asleep but I thought Soph lab was crucial. Perhaps you could distill it into a shorter form.
    You're basically learning the development of the scientific method in a hands-on way.

  1368. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:35:00 with 3 likes

    At Wyoming Catholic College they read Fisher's “Mathematics of a Lady Tasting Tea”; no idea what that is, but it sounds awsome.

  1369. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:36:00 with 3 likes

    also, they need botanical drawing in freshman lab and should hire Domiane to teach it

  1370. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:36:00 with 1 likes

    Dr. Kaiser also designed freshman lab, which could easily be done in 1 semester. I'll reserve judgment.

  1371. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:37:00 with 3 likes

    This?
    http://gymportalen.dk/.../Projekt9_1...

  1372. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:38:00 with 2 likes

    that looks great! TAC could also easily read Goethe on the nature and kinds of experiment, to great effect

  1373. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 1 likes

    Goethe on nature/science is a change I'd actually agree with.

  1374. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 4 likes

    I was wiser than I knew when I first said that this was the best FB thread ever.

  1375. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:39:00 with 3 likes

    Big Angry Daniel: people would still think about measurement without the torture of the Manual.

  1376. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 5 likes

    It's not "THE GREAT MANUALS method"

  1377. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 5 likes

    I'm against torture.

  1378. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 1 likes

    HAHAHAHA

  1379. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:40:00 with 0 likes

    well then let's all admit that Euclid could be taught differently.

  1380. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes

    just sayin'

  1381. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 1 likes

    You're supposed to think about precision of measurement vs. accuracy of measurement. The more precise you are, the less accurate you have the potential to be.

  1382. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 4 likes

    BLASPHEMER

  1383. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes

    And yeah, sophomore lab 2nd semester is the one place we really expirience the scientific method.

  1384. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 1 likes

    yep I went there

  1385. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:41:00 with 0 likes

    JA: WHAT!?!

  1386. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 0 likes

    just sayin'

  1387. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 4 likes

    Euclid WAS taught differently. Depending on the tutor...

  1388. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 0 likes

    literally LOL

  1389. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:42:00 with 4 likes

    I had Euclid....Prussian-style. I'll leave it at that

  1390. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:43:00 with 5 likes

    I am now firmly on the side of the Syllabus of Errors, which I believe condemns the foul words recently uttered by JA Escalante.

  1391. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:43:00 with 6 likes

    In the clerico-fascist empire that I will establish one of these days Calvinists who think that Euclid ought to be taught in any other way than THE WAY, will be burned first.

  1392. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 1 likes

    Some tutors were much more contemplative and meditative about Euclid than others. Certain tutors I have heard made it through far fewer props than others, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

  1393. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:44:00 with 1 likes

    ^^ You would.

  1394. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:44:00 with 3 likes

    Although freedom of conscience of a sort is allowable, persecution of heresy of this kind is necessary for the common good.
    We must race to seize power before this heretical Protestant in order to ensure the promulgation of The Truth.

  1395. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 1 likes

    How would you teach Euclid, Escalante?

  1396. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 4 likes

    I now I'm going to go pray Compline: sol non occidat super iracundiam vestram.

  1397. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:45:00 with 2 likes

    Matthew this is just Stockholm Syndrome you've got

  1398. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:46:00 with 2 likes

    People who think people should be burned at the stake should be burned at the stake.

  1399. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T13:46:00 with 4 likes

    They got to me. You discovered wherein they got to me. I too was taken captive by...a German sort of Euclid

  1400. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:47:00 with 1 likes

    ^our experience was identical, as you know

  1401. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:47:00 with 0 likes

    which is why I expect more revolutionary bravery from you on this point

  1402. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:48:00 with 1 likes

    Pater, for the record, Catherine just expressed a cardinal maxim of my political theology

  1403. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:48:00 with 2 likes

    I had Hartmann. It was perfect. I got to teach it

  1404. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:49:00 with 1 likes

    ah, one of TAC's great sins...the exile of Hartmann

  1405. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 1 likes

    ^my thesis advisor, fwiw

  1406. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 3 likes

    and Joel: I would make it less an exercise in high-pressure rote memorization, and much more one of leisurely construction and contemplation

  1407. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:50:00 with 4 likes

    Joel HF, quit being all ecumenical and asking questions n' stuff.

  1408. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:51:00 with 4 likes

    I didn't memorize a single prop. And I demonstrated them just fine. Rote memorization is not part of the TAC way.

  1409. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:52:00 with 1 likes

    "no true Scotsman"

  1410. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:52:00 with 3 likes

    neither did I. Learn the method of Euclid and follow it (For the record many of my demonstrations were not exactly the same as Euclids)

  1411. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:53:00 with 3 likes

    I didn't learn to demonstrate props until Apollonius. It was then that I realized that it was not about memorization.

  1412. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:53:00 with 1 likes

    it certainly shouldn't be

  1413. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:54:00 with 3 likes

    When assisting, Socratically, someone stuck at the board, I would always ask "what do you know" what have we learned before, most people can figure it out without too much help

  1414. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:54:00 with 2 likes

    Michael Beitia, I too often discovered variations at the board.

  1415. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:55:00 with 2 likes

    the first prop I demonstrated started a Sh*tstorm because I used different letters than the text. I used "hotdog" "smiley face" and "x" after that.

  1416. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:55:00 with 4 likes

    JA Escalante don't you mean "no true Prussian woman?"

  1417. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:56:00 with 1 likes

    maybe

  1418. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T13:56:00 with 0 likes

    But I rarely was allowed to demonstrate anything

  1419. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:57:00 with 3 likes

    Joel, you were by no means the measure or exemplar for how a typical person should do props. As I recall, Joel, you would often first study props in the minutes before class sophomore year, and then go to the board and demonstrate them marvelously, though often with variation. It was watching you that cued me into the fact that I was doing things wrongly.

  1420. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 2 likes

    Peter Fry would do that too. So amazing and depressing.

  1421. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 1 likes

    Only he wouldn't study them at all.

  1422. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 2 likes

    I mostly just knocked the table with my knee so the spun bottle would point at some other wretch

  1423. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T13:58:00 with 1 likes

    He would just read the first line and demonstrate them his own way.

  1424. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T13:59:00 with 5 likes

    Apropos of nothing. If one is looking for a deal:
    http://www.foxnews.com/.../21/5-best-value-rye-whiskies/...
    5 best value rye whiskies
    www.foxnews.com
    From rich chocolate cake to a peppermint-topped concoction, you’re sure to find something to satisfy your sweet tooth this season.

  1425. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T13:59:00 with 1 likes

    Peter Fry mathematical ability >>>>my mathematical ability

  1426. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:00:00 with 1 likes

    I can personally recommend Whistle Pig.

  1427. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:02:00 with 1 likes

    Daniel Lendman our sophomore section was so insanely good. I learned more that year in section than any other year.

  1428. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:02:00 with 1 likes

    True. True. As did, I.

  1429. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:04:00 with 4 likes

    Suddenly I miss TAC.

  1430. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:04:00 with 5 likes

    Stockholm Syndrome for sure.

  1431. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:05:00 with 1 likes

    Bwahaha!

  1432. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:12:00 with 2 likes

    Seriously, I would like to have some kind of TAC Anonymous group to help undergrads know things like How to recognize the symptoms of depression and what to do about them. What to do when you don't want to look at another book for at least a year. What to do when encountering Thomists of a non-Lavalian stripe. (That last is a joke, but I think depression is very common. It could be that people of a melancholic bile tend to gravitate toward TAC.)

  1433. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:12:00 with 2 likes

    JA Escalante - sat right next the corner too, trying to minimize the potential angle of doom.

  1434. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:13:00 with 0 likes

    TAC depression is very common. Is it the isolation? Is it the pressure of never getting away from the coursework? It is an odd, but very real, phenomena.

  1435. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:14:00 with 0 likes

    Not quite sure why.

  1436. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:15:00 with 1 likes

    I think it's the Brigadoon sense of the college. It's an intense experience, geographically isolated, and with too much of an unspoken assumption that there really isn't much truth or fellowship in seeking truth to be found outside its walls. Leaving is bound be depressing in that case

  1437. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 1 likes

    though honestly I was elated to bolt to Berkeley after sophomore year

  1438. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 2 likes

    Which is absolutely untrue, that there isn't much truth or fellowship "outside".

  1439. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:16:00 with 1 likes

    It wasn't the leaving that depressed me!

  1440. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:17:00 with 1 likes

    indeed. I wasn't one to fall for TAC superstitions, but even my mind was blown when I met grad students at Cal and they turned out to be just as sharp and readerly as TAC friends

  1441. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:17:00 with 1 likes

    Me either, I was thrilled to graduate, though I enjoyed being there too, in a mixed way (like everything is mixed).

  1442. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:18:00 with 2 likes

    I heard a great quote about grad school the other day "where you forgo current income to forgo future income..."

  1443. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:20:00 with 2 likes

    I burnt out senior year, and was glad to get going, though sad to leave friends. Though as Daniel Lendman says, I was hardly a model or exemplar student.

  1444. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-23T14:23:00 with 1 likes

    I meant that in the best possible way, Joel!!!

  1445. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:25:00 with 3 likes

    We need to have mini-TAC seminars all over the country (well world, really). With brunch and whiskey. I have Stockholm Syndrome too.

  1446. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:26:00 with 0 likes

  1447. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:29:00 with 1 likes

    Catherine the Johnnies do that; it always struck me as odd that TACers don't. But I think that's partly because of the TAC myth that the experience can't happen outside its walls

  1448. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:31:00 with 1 likes

    That's funny, I didn't run into that particular brand of TACism.

  1449. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:31:00 with 0 likes

    it was rampant when I was there...if you talked to faculty about grad school, they would start by shrugging and sighing with a sort of despair

  1450. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:32:00 with 1 likes

    Catherine Ryland: https://docs.google.com/.../1xBzrZlfGzxi5e4vjhulzIZL.../edit
    Education Without Credentials - Google Docs
    docs.google.com

  1451. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:32:00 with 0 likes

    I can imagine one thing -- you certainly can't recreate the experience of having four years to discuss everything. If you have brunch or a weekend, it ends too soon and that can be a little dampening.

  1452. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T14:34:00 with 1 likes

    Matthew, that sounds wonderful.

  1453. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T14:36:00 with 4 likes

    Many programs do something similar. I've given up hope on TAC per se (they should do what George does via the James Madison program in cities across the country with Princeton alumni for sheer fundraising proposes alone) but I think there is a lot of room in this space - as many people are starving for something like this - and not just TACers.
    By doing it regularly - like going to a gym or club - one can satisfy the appetites over time.
    Examples abound, from Clubs in English mining towns to the lyceums in Lincoln's America.
    There is no reason we can't do this.

  1454. Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:37:00 with 6 likes

    I'm a bit late on the topic of measurement, but one thing that would help Freshman Lab and Sophomore math would be to have a some observations of the basic motions of the heavens over a few months. The bit of observation we did at the beginning of Sophomore year was a joke. It's a good chance to think about how measuring works and it would make astronomy a lot more imaginable for a lot of students--perhaps it could even ensure that there would be no future debacle's like the Great Kolbeck Ptolemy Final Massacre of 2003.

  1455. Domiane Forte at 2014-08-23T14:39:00 with 5 likes

    JA Escalante: I'm visiting WCC right now, dreaming about applying for position and moving to Lander to develop just that kind of artistic/naturalist program.

  1456. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:40:00 with 3 likes

    What Henry Zepeda said

  1457. Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:45:00 with 0 likes

    I think St. Mary's Integral Program does a bit better with the observational side of astronomy, but I'm not quite sure what they do. Joe Zepeda, do you guys have astronomical observations as part of Freshman year lab/science?

  1458. Joel HF at 2014-08-23T14:46:00 with 4 likes

    Henry Zepeda don't most students get that anyways while drinking heavily in the wood? It might be a bit redundant.

  1459. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:47:00 with 2 likes

    but the stars are spinning unnaturally in that circumstance

  1460. Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    ??

  1461. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    in the circumstance Joel mentions

  1462. Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:48:00 with 0 likes

    In what circumstance?

  1463. Henry Zepeda at 2014-08-23T14:49:00 with 3 likes

    The neverending threat moves too fast for me!

  1464. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T14:49:00 with 3 likes

    "drinking heavily in the woods"

  1465. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T15:08:00 with 5 likes

    ^first chapter of my autobiography

  1466. John Ashman at 2014-08-23T15:20:00 with 1 likes

    Has this thread won the Internet yet?

  1467. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-23T15:23:00 with 4 likes

    "In the beginning of life, in a dark wood drinking heavily...."

  1468. Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:23:00 with 2 likes

    I feel so privileged to have played a small role in this. Do all of us get a check or something?

  1469. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:30:00 with 1 likes

    yeah. I believe peregrine gave your name a check on his list of suspected heretics.

  1470. Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:30:00 with 0 likes

    *Suspected*? That's all? I have failed.

  1471. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:33:00 with 3 likes

    i am on the soon to be burned. So idk.

  1472. Thomas Hall at 2014-08-23T15:34:00 with 1 likes

    When they burn me I hope they use cedar. I love the smell of cedar.

  1473. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-23T15:44:00 with 0 likes

    all right. I need to stop being mean. Unjust excommunication has no merit this way.

  1474. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:43:00 with 0 likes

    TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology. If you try to plant these seeds across the nation, you will get major blow back from sacred theology.

  1475. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:50:00 with 0 likes

    How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: Just one, but it takes a very long time. You have to wait till senior year, then the student can just hold the light bulb over his head, while the entire Cosmos revolves around him.

  1476. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T17:51:00 with 0 likes

    How many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?

  1477. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T17:59:00 with 2 likes

    How many?

  1478. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T18:10:00 with 0 likes

    How many Christendom students does it take to change a lightbulb?
    Lightbulbs?! Wa-choo looking at our lightbulbs for? Our lightbulbs are just fine... we like 'em just the way they are, thank you very much... now why don't you just go back to where you came from.

  1479. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-23T19:07:00 with 5 likes

    Also: How many TACers does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: It depends.

  1480. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:32:00 with 1 likes

    "TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology." That's funny, I have a (non-TAC) friend who thinks that TAC depression comes from the overabundance of dogmatic and doctrinaire theology found there.

  1481. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:34:00 with 0 likes

    Interesting statement from St. Thomas Aquinas against the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Relying on Aristotle's anotion of ensoulment, Thomas asserts: “If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ..” Thomas maintained: “The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed from it before her birth from the womb” (III, 27, 2, ad2).
    In the 14th C, the Franciscans opposed the Dominicans by supporting the Immaculata. At the Council of Basil, the Church declared that Mary was not included in the doctrine on original sin.

  1482. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:36:00 with 0 likes

    Because of St. Thomas, and his Aristotelean view of the human soul -- which contended that ensoulment takes place after conception, and only a rational being could be preserved from sin -- the Dominicans were the last hold out within the Church in support of the Immaculate Conception.
    In the 19th Century, Pope Pius IX, with support from a vast majority of bishops, and shortly after the vision of the Miraculous Medal which reads "O Mary, conceived without sin..." the Church promulgated the infallible doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
    I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology.

  1483. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:37:00 with 1 likes

    "I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology." No problem there.

  1484. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:39:00 with 0 likes

    Also, how many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: That's not really the right question to ask. Chirstendom students aren't allowed to do anything until the Magisterium tells them it's ok, and that can take centuries.

  1485. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:45:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine, "doctrinaire theology" I think is what Liberals say. It is baseless. They see it as dead and lifeless. Indeed, there version of it is. But in the true sense, we are just talking about first principles, when we talk about dogmas, and assent to first principles by faith, not because they are self-evident to the reason, but by grace and assenr. We depart from first principles as we launch into theological inquiry, in the same way that medieval science departs from self evident first principles. Or we can arrive at dogma, through an examination of the theological debate which led to the dogma. The Immaculate Conception for example. I do not see how anyone could see this is doctrinaire or anything other than animated and life+giving.

  1486. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T19:45:00 with 0 likes

    Perescott, you still haven't defined what YOU mean by sacred theology

  1487. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:56:00 with 0 likes

    Q: How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb? I really need to know.
    A: Don't worry, it all becomes clear for you senior year.

  1488. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T19:59:00 with 0 likes

    B'tia, do you really want a definition? Or are you just asking? Pearls before swine and all... I can give you a definition that would melt your soul and help you slay dragons, but you've really got to want it..

  1489. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T19:59:00 with 4 likes

    It does! You know everything there is to know in the whole universe by senior year.

  1490. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:13:00 with 1 likes

    I've only been asking you for IDK 2.5 YEARS to define what the hell you're talking about, Scottegrine....

  1491. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:13:00 with 1 likes

    maybe less, I exaggerate

  1492. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-23T20:15:00 with 3 likes

    Liam Collins- I'm guessing your dad is Sean? I just want to say that senior lab with him was unforgettable. One of my all time favorites- he is just so perfectly suited to that kind of thing. I don't know what they're changing from that class, but it would be a shame if they keep Faerie Queen but change senior lab. I'll always remember the class where your dad asked what it means to say "at the same time" and I quickly gave what I considered to be a good explanation, and he kept picking it apart and then I realized that I couldn't really define it. It was like the time in junior theology when Kolbeck said he fell out of his chair the first time he realized that, since God's essence & existence are one and the same (I'm paraphrasing quite a bit here), then when we have the beatific vision, God is literally dwelling in our minds.... it's moments like that that I like to relive when I think back to my Arcadia.

  1493. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:16:00 with 2 likes

    I had Sean Collins for senior lab as well. Excellent man for the job

  1494. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T20:16:00 with 2 likes

    That's inaccurate. It's junior year.

  1495. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:17:00 with 2 likes

    I knew everything by sophomore year

  1496. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T20:18:00 with 1 likes

    Precocious.

  1497. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T20:18:00 with 1 likes

    I was one wise fool

  1498. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T20:24:00 with 1 likes

    Such madness... and schadenfreude...

  1499. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T20:43:00 with 1 likes

    Okay, are you ready for a definition of sacred theology, a definition to set the world on fire?
    I deliver a promise to not overpromise and underdeliver.

  1500. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T21:01:00 with 0 likes

    Right now, everything is happening at the same time. Just a thought. I digress...

  1501. Joshua Kenz at 2014-08-23T21:13:00 with 3 likes

    I always through that junior and senior math and science needed major revision. But I also had Mrs. Gustin for senior math, which was a disaster (that may not have been the case had it been just a few years before)
    What is covered freshman and sophomore year was okay. But there is a reason Fabre is often sold to homeschoolers....a fun text maybe through middle school. Of course you cannot presume that freshman would have covered such basic things, but I still think of sophmore and freshman year as remedial, and the important aspects able to be accomplished much more quickly.
    Senior year needed more order. And more competent tutors. Ours for science was actually good. The same cannot be said of say junior mathematics. Frankly after having what sadly devolved to a shouting match with the tutor over what dx/dy meant, I was bemused the next morning to overhear Dr. Ferrier repeating to my tutor the exact same points I made...even if one competently, you end with what is in some aspects less than HS calculus. And you only can hope to get infinitesimal calculus down. Which is woefully way behind. You never even hear epsilon, delta.
    And we do a terrible disservice to non-Euclidean geometry, e.g. the hyperbolic geometry of Lobachevsky....heck how many students, in all foolishness tried proving the 5th postulate? Or squaring the circle, or giving a Euclidean trisection of the angle? All of which things are not simple unproved, but proved to be impossible. Heck many students didn't understand what was even meant by "Euclidean" when one said there was no way of trisecting the angle with "Euclidean geometry"
    But frankly I liked Freshman and Sophomore year math. It could be improved, yes. But I found no major fault with it. The sort of things raised later, such as incorrect proofs given by Euclid that moderns have found I don't mind being ignored (partially because many of them may not be incorrect, e.g. book I prop I is listed as a faulty proof by moderns, because it assumes without proof that the two circles intersect....but that really goes to an argument over the nature of mathematics...and not a new one. Proclus gave that as an example of an error of Euclid.)

  1502. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T21:41:00 with 1 likes

    Hmm. . . I had Molly before the decline... and the order was well done. But I had her for both junior and senior math, so I can't speak to any other tutor with deficient knowledge of the subject.
    I loved non-Euclidean geometry, but wish we would have read Gauss instead. Or maybe Georg Cantor... after Molly's decline it seems like there isn't much left of that tutorial

  1503. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T21:47:00 with 2 likes

    Does anyone else think a whole semester on the Politics is unnecessary? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

  1504. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T21:49:00 with 2 likes

    Possibly, but please don't even think about taking time away from the Ethics.

  1505. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-23T21:49:00 with 0 likes

    Definition of Sacred Theology:
    A preamble...
    Let's define sacred theology. Let us give it a definition, in the same way that the lesser sciences have a definition; in the same way that natural theology (metaphysics) or geometry have been given a definitions. And what is a definition but a central truth? and how important truth is to knowledge! for, just as in the lesser sciences, an error is something that is not true, it is a falsehood, or an error in definition. But in sacred theology, which deals with higher things, what is an error in definition but a heresy? So let us define sacred theology in such a way as to ensure that every curriculum can adopt it easily, so that it helps the student begin at the right place and proceed in the right direction.

  1506. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-23T21:50:00 with 1 likes

    how about genus and difference? Can you do that?

  1507. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-23T21:51:00 with 3 likes

    Okay, how about a cease-fire at least until the initial proposed definition is made? I for one am interested.

  1508. Claire Keeler at 2014-08-23T22:10:00 with 1 likes

    Not to be picky, Nina, but it's Bueller! As in Ferris Bueller!

  1509. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:24:00 with 1 likes

    haha i had a classmate in highschool who spelled it that way... sorry... fixed it!

  1510. Marie Pitt-Payne at 2014-08-23T22:25:00 with 2 likes

    "To do theology - as the Magisterium understands theology - it is not sufficient merely to calculate how much religion can reasonably be expected of man and to utilize bits and pieces of the Christian tradition accordingly. Theology is born when the arbitrary judgment of reason encounters a limit, in that we discover something which we have not excogitated ourselves but which has been revealed to us."
    - Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Nature and Mission of Theology

  1511. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T22:35:00 with 2 likes

    Nina Rachele - I think a semester on the politics and ethics is more than needed - it is vital. The problem is the way it is treated.

  1512. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:37:00 with 0 likes

    the way it is treated? you mean, the method, or the attitudes toward it of students or tutors?

  1513. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:38:00 with 1 likes

    I do believe in a full semester on the ethics.

  1514. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-23T22:41:00 with 1 likes

    Attitudes and the framework within which it is set. Definitely should be seen as vital - more related, in fact, to life as lived by most graduates ever after than much of what student think they value more.
    How many people have gone into philosophy to study the "higher things" and fizzled out? Heh. I know a lot of peeps with a Masters in Metaphysics.
    But we all live with politics.

  1515. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-23T22:47:00 with 2 likes

    That's one reason why I think it should be read in seminar, along with the other works of political science. Preferrably in its entirety, before we read Hobbes, for example.

  1516. Nina Rachele at 2014-08-24T00:19:00 with 0 likes

    *er, I guess the hidden premise in that statement is that I always thought of seminar (for the most part) as the class where we *were* trying to connect to life lived outside and after TAC.

  1517. Shannon Williams at 2014-08-24T00:47:00 with 2 likes

    ...and, you know, to feelings.

  1518. Shannon Williams at 2014-08-24T00:48:00 with 1 likes

    (I think I kind of thought of it that way too)

  1519. Peter Halpin at 2014-08-24T01:07:00 with 4 likes

    I'm blocking this undead mess of a thread.

  1520. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T07:13:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine, be careful about engaging the troll.

  1521. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:23:00 with 2 likes

    I am in fact interested in the magisterium topic because I've been struggling with my own difficulties (not because I am a TACer for sure -- on the contrary) to accept what it is and what kind of sway it really ought to have over intellectual inquiry, primarily because I was discussing it with someone over a certain period of time.
    My friend pointed out something I heard several times but haven't actually paid attention to: When a tutor takes the oath of fidelity, he or she says "... I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."
    This is clearly not talking about ex cathedra statements, because intention and pronouncement in a certain formula is clearly required for infallible statements. How is something part of the magisterium when the pope/bishops do not even intend it to be definitive? What does the above section of the oath even mean?

  1522. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:28:00 with 0 likes

    It's hard for me to understand how we can have actual intellectual inquiry if we have already decided to submit our minds to things not intended to be taught definitively by very fallible people (i.e. the pope and the college of bishops not making formulaically infallible statements).

  1523. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T08:31:00 with 1 likes

    I understand not all tutors must take this oath (I suspect the non-Catholic faculty would not), but the wording of the oath sounds misguided. http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/catholic-life/oath-fidelity
    Oath of Fidelity | Thomas Aquinas College
    www.thomasaquinas.edu
    In keeping with the College’s commitment to remain faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and in accordance with canon law, members of the Thomas Aquinas College faculty take the Oath of Fidelity and make the Profession of Faith, printed below:

  1524. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T08:36:00 with 4 likes

    The CDF in its commentary on that paragraph states: «To this paragraph belong all those teachings – on faith and morals – presented as true or at least as sure, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgement or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.18 They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of revelation, or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of faith, or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with those truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to error. A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as rash or dangerous and therefore 'tuto doceri non potest'.» http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998...

  1525. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T08:40:00 with 1 likes

    Even when they do not speak definitively the successors of the Apostles are authentic "witnesses to divine and Catholic truth," and "speak in the name of Christ" (Lumen Gentium 25), "The one who hears you hears me." (Luke 10:16).

  1526. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T09:55:00 with 0 likes

    And what if they contradict prior teaching? Especially when it is held by a majority of theologians as infallible. The very basis is a document whose authority is not de fide.

  1527. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T09:58:00 with 2 likes

    Who is the judge of whether they contradict prior teaching?

  1528. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T09:59:00 with 0 likes

    yeah. It silences discussion of the most urgent questions. Why not the oath against modernism? Are we not to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current magesterial "teachings"?

  1529. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:01:00 with 0 likes

    Pater, what is to be held de fide by the faithful? That is the question.

  1530. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:10:00 with 0 likes

    One of the very terms in that CDF explanation is comdemned. What does "deeper understanding" mean. An ambiguous law is not binding.

  1531. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:10:00 with 1 likes

    We are to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current teaching. Of course. Hermeneutic of continuity.

  1532. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:17:00 with 0 likes

    Again read carefully the Hermeneutic of continuity instruction. Can you define the terms used unambiguously? Can a submission of Faith be required of non-infallible statesments which seem to contradict prior more authoratative teaching AND all discussion of those apparent contradictions be forbidden?

  1533. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:20:00 with 0 likes

    Do you see my frustration?

  1534. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:21:00 with 0 likes

    Obviously it is necessary to discuss apparent contradictions. Especially apparent contradictions between teachings that require submission of faith (Unam Sanctam for instance) and those that require merely religious submission of will and intellect.

  1535. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:30:00 with 2 likes

    then we agree

  1536. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T10:30:00 with 2 likes

    How many discussions do we have going on here at the same time?

  1537. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:32:00 with 1 likes

    distinguish: religious submission vs. assent of faith

  1538. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:33:00 with 4 likes

  1539. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:35:00 with 0 likes

    cant see that... off to mass

  1540. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:36:00 with 2 likes

    The picture was for Lauren Ogrodnick.

  1541. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:38:00 with 2 likes

    But John Ruplinger, assent of faith is strictly speaking only given to truths contained in the deposit of faith, but religious submission can be given to truths in some way connected to that deposit, or to prudential decisions of the rulers of the Church, the successors of the Apostles.

  1542. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:39:00 with 2 likes

    The former is an act of the supernatural virtue of faith, the later is an act of the virtue of religion, a part of the virtue of justice.

  1543. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 0 likes

    This relates to Catherine's question as well as Newman and development of doctrine and magesterium and theology at tac and how to teach. When it ends it will be clear.

  1544. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 2 likes

    It will never end.

  1545. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:40:00 with 2 likes

    ^That is not strictly true.

  1546. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:41:00 with 1 likes

    wherefore i winked

  1547. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:44:00 with 0 likes

    and when the one contradicts the other, what then? (And i see the hermeunetic of continuity as keeping open wide the door to private interpretation of dogma)

  1548. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:45:00 with 1 likes

    of course fb could continue in heaven and thus it be strictly true too.

  1549. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:49:00 with 3 likes

    The living teaching office of the Church, especially that of the Supreme Pontiff, is the final judge when there is a dispute about seeming contradictions.

  1550. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 0 likes

    but has he so judged?

  1551. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 2 likes

    "The talk was a series of assertions and interjections. Ambrose lived in and for conversation; he rejoiced in the whole intricate art of it - the timing and striking the proper juxtaposition of narrative and comment, the bursts of spontaneous parody, the allusion one would recognize and one would not, the changes of alliance, the betrayals, the diplomatic revolutions, the waxing and waning of dictatorships that could happen in an hour's session about a table. But could it happen? Was that, too, most exquisite and exacting of the arts, part of the buried world of Diaghilev?" (E. Waugh)

  1552. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 0 likes

    About what?

  1553. Pater Edmund at 2014-08-24T10:56:00 with 5 likes

    Don't you have to go to Mass?

  1554. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T10:57:00 with 0 likes

    the disputes are not aired or hardly breathed.

  1555. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T11:27:00 with 1 likes

    Sacred Theology:
    A short definition.
    Sacred theology is the science pertaining to all supernatural truths revealed by God to man in the sacred deposit of the Faith, under the authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in Her extraordinary and ordinary capacities. It is distinct from natural theology (metaphysics) whose object is Being, and God, and which proceeds by reason.
    The longer definition of Sacred Theology will be given before Peterson's fb page turns into a pumpkin.

  1556. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T12:40:00 with 2 likes

    Now I see where you go wrong.

  1557. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T12:46:00 with 0 likes

    Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est duplex. Una, in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum scientiae, sed tamquam principia subiecti, et talis est theologia, quam philosophi prosequuntur, quae alio nomine metaphysica dicitur. Alia vero, quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est theologia, quae in sacra Scriptura traditur.
    Utraque autem est de his quae sunt separata a materia et motu secundum esse, sed diversimode, secundum quod dupliciter potest esse aliquid a materia et motu separatum secundum esse. Uno modo sic, quod de ratione ipsius rei, quae separata dicitur, sit quod nullo modo in materia et motu esse possit, sicut Deus et Angeli dicuntur a materia et motu separati. Alio modo sic, quod non sit de ratione eius quod sit in materia et motu, sed possit esse sine materia et motu, quamvis quandoque inveniatur in materia et motu. Et sic ens et substantia et potentia et actus sunt separata a materia et motu, quia secundum esse a materia et motu non dependent, sicut mathematica dependebant, quae numquam nisi in materia esse possunt, quamvis sine materia sensibili possint intelligi.
    Theologia ergo philosophica determinat de separatis secundo modo sicut de subiectis, de separatis autem primo modo sicut de principiis subiecti. Theologia vero sacrae Scripturae tractat de separatis primo modo sicut de subiectis, quamvis in ea tractentur aliqua quae sunt in materia et motu, secundum quod requirit rerum divinarum manifestatio.
    Super Boethium De Trinitate, Q. 5, a. 4, Resp.

  1558. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T13:24:00 with 1 likes

    I dont believe i make a mistake in this regard. Can you be specific? Or is this to Peregrine? I dont think I have denied the distinction though i perhaps i mistake the full scope of metaphysics.

  1559. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T13:41:00 with 3 likes

    I don't think that response was addressed to you

  1560. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:16:00 with 0 likes

    Pater Edmund, you last asked, I believe, what things have not been judged by the pope. I must respond that in recent years, no matters of undisputed contraversies have been decided. As such, it seems we are required to hold with religious assent those that the Church has always taught or those held before. The very doctrine of whether or how doctrine can change is at issue.
    Let me ask this instead. To renounce matters that demand the assent of Faith, is to renounce one's Faith. Shall I then renounce my Faith, to submit to matters that require religious submission? Moreover, am I not extended some sympathy, especially in light of Dignitatis Humanae? Does Nostra Aetate only assume good will in heretics, Jews, Muslims and even unbelievers, but none in Catholics who in no way reject the Faith? Or shall Ecumenism embrace all the former with open arms but her own faithful for “errors” unexplained have only derision and scorn? Again, the hermeneutic of continuity slams the door on any inquiry that merely happens to find discontinuity, but this is a sly and underhanded trick and I call foul. Why? Because if some of the present teachings that require mere religious assent contradict some teaching that requires by Faith (and to keep the Faith) assent of Faith, isn't it a false reasoning that only tries to “correct” the constant teaching by making it conform by hermeneutical trick to the “new” teaching?
    To phrase it another way the hermeneutic of continuity demands that there be no objection: indeed it nods in favor to new teaching over established teaching making the latter conform to the former. In another way I read it as the pope saying, “Continuity, let there be continuity, there will be continuity.” As to scholastic objections, the reponse: “non disputandum est.” And actions bear this out. For Gheradini took decades before he mildly voiced his well scientificly reasoned (scholastically speaking) argument. He produced no rash judgements (of what I've read). He merely introduced questions. And yet the house that published his work in English is now SHUT DOWN. Unbelievable. Non disputandum est. And how can you or anyone know what are the contraversies or objections if they can't be voiced but AS YOU DID, merely say “hermeunetic of continuity” and discussion be damned? But you sacrifice Faith to current fad.
    And as to the instruction, I'll focus on one point only. It is ambiguous. What is the hermeneutic? Is it “of reform” or “of renewal”. By making these terms apposite, the pope has nullified his own directive. For is it reform? Or is it something new? What does he mean by reform? What Pius X meant? Again, an ambiguous law is not binding. So even it were ever right to correct irreformable dogma to make it continuous with novelty, the very decree that mandates this is null for its ambiguity (and that on only one point, for other terms too are ambiguous).
    Anyways, something while I work on Newman.

  1561. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:17:00 with 1 likes

    John, that was not addressed to you.

  1562. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:20:00 with 2 likes

    Sorry, I kinda guessed, but as you know I can't see Peregrine. Ironic, that invisibility was the only reason I entered this thread, and now I can't get out

  1563. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:21:00 with 0 likes

    John, your last comment has made me laugh.

  1564. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:22:00 with 0 likes

    Also, your thoughts about the hermeneutic of continuity are very interesting.

  1565. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:25:00 with 2 likes

    I have two thoughts:
    1. It seems to me that the assent of faith does not give way to religious assent. (Here I think of Joan of Arc)
    2. It seems that the hermeneutic of continuity, in order to be authentically employed, cannot "nod in favor of new teaching over established teaching. Rather, it must see how there is a concord, and reconcile both according to the authority of said teachings.

  1566. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:26:00 with 1 likes

    John, that last comment is addressed to you.

  1567. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T14:28:00 with 2 likes

    there is no escape. But Youknowwho distinguished "Sacred Theology" from metaphysics (natural theology to him) insofar as natural theology proceeds by reason. So I suppose Sacred theology is unreasonable.
    All clear here

  1568. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:32:00 with 1 likes

    Firstly, I don't imply that Pope Benedict played an underhanded trick. It is merely the effect of the words logically and concretely (as Newman might say).

  1569. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes

    But Daniel Lendman:
    As to the first, she was never asked to deny an article of Faith and so it does not apply. As to the second, the problem is that it elevates any statement to level of infallible doctrine. There is NO WAY to question it.

  1570. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:43:00 with 4 likes

    Additionally, he falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a subject. This mad clear to me a great number of his problems. Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and theology. This is why he makes such a big deal about "assent to the fulness of faith." Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of faith, but we don't need to make such a strong distinction there. We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal objects. Sacred Theology alone treats of God directly. This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Theology. Even the preambles; even the stuff that can be known by reason! Why? Because it is proceeding according to a higher light, and starting with God as its formal object.

  1571. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:34:00 with 0 likes

    Are objections to be tossed with the scholastic method as well? (continuing my previous post)

  1572. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T14:37:00 with 4 likes

    I think you make a good point with regards to the second. I have seen this with VII. There is a tendency, because there are so few/no formal definitions in Vatican II documents to assume that every thing and every word is infallible.

  1573. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:41:00 with 3 likes

    Is it not ironic that we can question former teachings of the Chruch under the "doctrine" of development, but we are barred from questioning any current statements (and how current? today's? fifty years ago?) under religious submission? The only ground for criticizing current teaching (or the best I should say) is prior teaching; thus the grounds for valid criticism have been undercut.

  1574. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T14:46:00 with 0 likes

    Thus while criticizing those who treat Vatican II like superdogma, Benedict also elevated the same to level of infallibility, not per se, but because they cannot be criticized on account of "religious submission" of LG and the requirement of heremeneutic of (reform, of renewal in) continuity.

  1575. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T14:54:00 with 3 likes

    hence the nostalgia for one page encyclicals.....

  1576. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:00:00 with 0 likes

    Yet another riddle: almost every peritus (including Ratzinger) has at some time declared discontinuity or even rupture (either triumphantly or with remorse)

  1577. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:03:00 with 2 likes

    why can't we throw Unum Sanctam and Nostra Aetate in a ring and watchem duke it out?

  1578. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T15:05:00 with 4 likes

    Youknowwho called me a heretic for quoting Unum Sanctam and taking it seriously. But I guess that's what I get for sticking to the wrong Magisterium. I'm supposed to follow the ordinary, I guess, not the one that defines and proclaims......

  1579. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:06:00 with 0 likes

    or one Matthew might like : Libertas vs. DH. [I'll bet it all on the former btw ]

  1580. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:15:00 with 0 likes

    I dunno. Seems like VII is treated as superdogma by almost no one.

  1581. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes

    Sweet, someone mentioned Joan of Arc. I was also thinking of her. Daniel , you are on a roll!

  1582. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:16:00 with 1 likes

    (Though I still recommend kindness to people (including "trolls"), even if they are unkind back to you.)

  1583. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:19:00 with 2 likes

    but can any one say what it means? authoratatively? If we changed this thread to "will the real vii stand up", we could guarantee its unendingness. (Matthew)

  1584. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T15:21:00 with 2 likes

    Isn't that the problem though -- not even the magisterium knows what the magisterium actually includes?

  1585. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:33:00 with 2 likes

    or means. . .

  1586. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T15:33:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine Ryland,4 before the Second Renaissance of the never-ending thread (inaugurated largely by your return) I posted this with regards to the troll. You may not have seen it.
    "My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all."

  1587. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:35:00 with 2 likes

    I just don't see many saying or acting as if VII was superdogma.
    I do see a lot of people on this thread making superdogma out of a tiny fraction of other councils and Papal pronouncements ripped out of context to suit their own present purposes, however.

  1588. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T15:36:00 with 4 likes

    Matthew , I wish I grew up in your world! Vatican 2 was all I heard of growing up and even the Baltimore catechism was thrown out for being outdated. Then again it's usually treated as "super dogma" without actually being understood or sometimes even read.

  1589. Daniel Lendman at 2014-08-24T15:37:00 with 4 likes

    Matthew, I also encounter a lot of V2 as Superdogma.

  1590. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:42:00 with 0 likes

    That's not superdogma - that's simply finding an excuse for licentiousness.
    Those people don't believe in such a thing as dogma, and that is not the fault of VII.
    The original sin of traddies everywhere is blaming the sudden use of VII as VII's fault. Whatever it's faults, if the Church was not already as it was no one would have been for the liturgical changes that it obviously did not force on anyone - and the masses would have used VII against its abusers. Let's not pretend they did so.
    In any event, it's not superdogma - most of the people you are complaining about have read less of VII than you. They aren't even very familiar with it, and they don't truly hold to it.

  1591. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T15:45:00 with 1 likes

    But their use of VII is similar to the select use of certain Papal pronouncements and encyclicals and councils on the other extreme, I suppose.
    In both cases we know the obvious black and white position of the Church via a few mantras ripped out of context to fit the personality and predilections of the proponent in contemporary life.

  1592. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T15:48:00 with 3 likes

    You can tell when this thread will be resuscitated -- when you get notification that someone is 'liking' your posts from 2 days ago...

  1593. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:49:00 with 0 likes

    no the problems surely predate vii. And how can i bring up all the docs of the prior hundred years. Lots more than a couple docs. One could point to entire corpora of some popes.

  1594. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T15:50:00 with 0 likes

    DEFINITION OF SACRED THEOLOGY:
    CRITIQUE OF THOMAS AQUINAS COLLEGE
    Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma.
    In Catholic liberal education, sacred theology is the highest science. It begins with Wisdom. Wisdom is a supernatural virtue, that makes the soul responsive to assent to divine truths. In Catholic liberal education, Wisdom does not have a double meaning: Wisdom is not also defined as the end of natural theology or metaphysics. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord, which is an assent to revelation and the deposit of the Faith. It is those things which are not revealed by flesh and blood, but by “my Father in heaven.” (Matthew 16).
    However, in its Charter, Thomas Aquinas College has mis-defined Wisdom, but stating that it comes through study of the great masters. It even falsely claims that papal encyclicals have asserted that wisdom comes at the end study of the Masters, rather from the beginning of the fear of the Lord, where it says that “papal encyclicals made it plain that the perennial wisdom was to be studied through the works of the great masters…”
    Indeed, Thomas Aquinas College seems to admit that its version of Wisdom is incomplete when it says in its charter that “metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology.”
    However, metaphysics is not necessary for the full development of sacred theology. But assent to divine revelation is, and this is what is missing in the curriculum at Thomas Aquinas College.
    In fact, the few doctrines that Thomas Aquinas College teach in its curriculum are rarely, if ever, demonstrative of the role of theological Wisdom and the Magisterium in the development of the doctrine.
    As a matter of Faith, sacred theology is supported by numerous infallible teachings of the Church, including:
    That man has the gift of the sacred science by infusion of grace; that this grace is infused in man prior to an act of free will; that the vision of God transcends natural cognition; that even God’s existence is an object of supernatural faith, not merely reason; and that it is impossible without grace to study the faith and come to the correct conclusions.
    It is wholly inadequate for a Catholic college to exclude sacred theology from its curriculum, especially when it proposes to be the completion of liberal education.
    Yet Thomas Aquinas College imposes its version of natural theology into the place of sacred theology when it makes its unfounded claim that “theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man.” In proper context, the charter of the college is speaking of metaphysics when it uses the word “theology” in the preceding quote. It claims then that this type of Catholic education presents “liberal education in its fullness.”
    This is a false claim; for by its own admission the college admits that it does not present theology in its fullness; while again falsely claiming that its version of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of the study of sacred theology. Both of these claims are false. For sacred theology begins with assent to divinely revealed principles revealed by grace and imparted by Wisdom.

  1595. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T15:53:00 with 0 likes

    The more one reads, the more the contrast appears. And the more clear the underlying problems.

  1596. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T15:54:00 with 0 likes

    We finally have a definition on the table.

  1597. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T15:55:00 with 0 likes

    In short, TAC says in its charter that its curriculum and presentation of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of theology as a science. In fact, the Church, infallibly, states the exact opposite.

  1598. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T16:04:00 with 0 likes

    Moreover, Matthew, your barb misses the mark. I dont think i have quoted one text. Pascendi, i have refered to most and as a whole, but that and the oath as well as its promulgation and Lamentabile Sana are not like others. Their roar still reechoes and the mere mention causes sneers or knees to quake. Not your typical papal decree of the last 500 years. EDIT: no quote of a pre vii text.

  1599. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:02:00 with 1 likes

    for those John) who can't see it:
    "Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma."

  1600. Brian Gerrity at 2014-08-24T16:05:00 with 3 likes

    I don't think I've known others who have treated VII as a super dogma in itself, but it begins to take that appearance when they act dismissive to the previous 1900+ years of the Church's teachings and existence.

  1601. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:06:00 with 5 likes

    Peterson: No one has ever claimed Trent, or Lateran IV or Florence was "THE COUNCIL". VII gets that treatment. I've been told VII overrides and nullifies everything that came before, an obvious impossibility from the Catholic perspective.

  1602. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:07:00 with 0 likes

    It's like trying to read Lumen Gentium without having read Mystici Corporis. Not freakin' possible.

  1603. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:07:00 with 1 likes

    Simple right way of thinking:
    Interpret the obscure by the plain.

  1604. Brian Kemple at 2014-08-24T16:13:00 with 7 likes

    So... not having attended TAC (unless you count those three classes I sat in on about 10 or 11 years ago), I can't help but interject, because I teach class tomorrow evening and have a dissertation to write, so, I need pointless procrastination. Plus this thread has popped up in my feed every day for the last however long and yada yada yada.
    I agree that TAC ought to have more education in sacred theology. I think that's a good thing, though one which is understandably difficult to incorporate into a great books curriculum. I am not proposing any solution.
    But, this last diatribe by Peregrine is, well, just wrong, at least according to St. Thomas. Wisdom is manifold. We talk about the wisdom with regard to practical matters, i.e., prudence (In Nic. Eth., lib. VI, lec.6-10); we talk about wisdom as a knowledge of the highest principles of reasoning about matters proportionate to human understanding (ibid., lec.5-6); we talk about wisdom as a gift of the Holy Spirit infused by grace, by which man judges rightly through inclination, and we talk about wisdom as a principle of judgment through knowledge, as the whole who has attained knowledge of highest principles and their application to further knowledge through some study (ST Ia q.1, a.6, ad.3),
    Moreover, Thomas states repeatedly in the Summa Contra Gentiles that a study of the things of earth, of the works of creation, is useful and in some ways even necessary for understanding the things of faith (e.g., SCG I, c.7-8, II, c.2-4).
    Consider: if there are errors which seem to invalidate the teaching of sacred theology which can be overcome only by a systematic development of metaphysics, then, in the realm of intellectual development, is not a rightly-considered metaphysics necessary for the teaching of sacred theology?
    I hope I'm not butting in too much... I just hate seeing Thomas misappropriated.

  1605. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:16:00 with 0 likes

    The definition of sacred theology has been around for hundreds of years. It's surprising how anyone could have missed it.

  1606. John Ruplinger at 2014-08-24T16:18:00 with 0 likes

    (Regarding supercouncil status in deed:) and my many attempts at rephrasing just how this is done by means of the "hermeneutic of continuity"? But more, it makes vii the reference point for all discussion as vii indirectly touches all matters of faith (often directly too).

  1607. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:23:00 with 2 likes

    Perescott of Goodriddens, you equivocate on "Wisdom" and claim that you're not. You take, explicitly, only one definition, and misapply that definition to the founders of TAC.
    That, my "friend", is called a straw man

  1608. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:24:00 with 0 likes

    Sorry, I didn't mean to leave you all sputtering. I just wanted to convey the Church's definition of sacred theology. I didn't write any of the errors that are in the Charter of Thomas Aquinas College. So you can't really blame me for anything. Thanks and may God bless you.

  1609. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:24:00 with 2 likes

    ^that, my "friend", is called douchebaggery

  1610. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:25:00 with 1 likes

    and no one is sputtering, more like TLDR

  1611. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T16:28:00 with 1 likes

    I could go paragraph at a time and tell you where you're wrong, but I don't think you'd listen.

  1612. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T16:34:00 with 3 likes

    Off topic, but appropriate http://www.openculture.com/.../philosophy-referee-hand...
    Philosophy Referee Hand Signals
    www.openculture.com
    The next time you're presiding over an intense philosophical debate, feel free to use these hand signals to referee things. Devised by philosophy prof Landon Schurtz, these hand signals were jokingly meant to be used at APA (American Philosophy Association) conferences.

  1613. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T16:40:00 with 0 likes

    Est quod est.

  1614. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:07:00 with 7 likes

    Before too much longer, though I don't want to derail anything in the interesting magisterium discussion, I would say this: obviously TAC is not "the fulness of liberal education" or whatever that quote was -- perhaps that's admissions office hyperbole. For one thing, that's not possible in four years. It's true that there is a profound and admirable attempt to have students follow a curriculum with elements from the trivium and quadrivium, and then going on to study natural and metaphysical sciences.
    Furthermore there's not even a pretense that TAC gives a complete education in all the branches of theology. No one there would even claim that. It's not supposed to do this. It may give you an amazing jumpstart (since you've read some scripture and a bunch of church fathers/doctors/documents), but that's it.
    Almost any tutor you speak with will tell you that TAC only tries to be "a good beginning". They say (well, Mr. Collins has said), that we should really cover the same material in 8 years that is attempted to be covered in 4, only no one would come. Though really you could cover it for 80, or 800 years, and still not get to the bottom of it all. If you want to specialize in any of the sciences, divine or otherwise, you better immerse yourself in their pursuit for the rest of your life.

  1615. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T18:08:00 with 1 likes

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think no one at TAC is claiming to teach dogmatic or systematic theology, or even claiming that the way they teach theology is the only way or anything like that.
    In fact, and to me this is one of the pluses of TAC, they don't really claim to teach anything at all -- they give the students access to these amazing and enduring texts from all time, and basically let them sink or swim, only they remind us that there is truth and Truth that we are all looking for, and we only have an incomplete piece of that since it is infinite.
    They don't even have professors who profess to teach, but rather are co-disciples or travelers maybe further along the same road, who are asking questions of the students (and of themselves) to goad everyone to keep delving further into greater understanding of everything.
    And in fact many students are converted this way -- they go looking for further instruction in the official teachings of the Church (through RCIA or whatnot). My classmate was agnostic when she came (culturally Buddhist) and she is now baptized Catholic and in many ways a better Catholic than I am.
    They most probably are not converted by the humility or charity of its students.

  1616. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:17:00 with 12 likes

    The initial claim (at the beginning of the never-ending thread) was that this was the only school of undergraduates where every single student in the student body was required to read vast sums of Aquinas and Aristotle. That's it.
    That claim does not mean there is not another department in some undergraduate program that reads more Aquinas or Aristotle (that is, there might be some school that DOES read more), though that seems unlikely. For many people that's not even a desirable goal.

  1617. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T17:23:00 with 3 likes

    ^Sweet, sweet RATIONALITY.

  1618. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T17:28:00 with 3 likes

    Catherine has totally settled the initial question. Really.

  1619. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T17:38:00 with 1 likes

    But we still have to settle the magisterium problem. That could take a while.

  1620. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T17:39:00 with 1 likes

    I don't have one; but you all have fun!

  1621. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T17:58:00 with 2 likes

    Calvinists....

  1622. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:18:00 with 6 likes

    Wow, I step away for a couple of days, and a thousand new comments show up (which I have now finished reading) . . . 400 more till 2000.

  1623. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:24:00 with 1 likes

    I've always taken "religious submission of intellect and will" to be a limited kind of promise: it's saying something like "I will not contradict authoritative teaching publicly and will be slow to think the opposite, especially in matters outside my area of expertise." (Or something like that).

  1624. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:26:00 with 0 likes

    I think the first part is important because oftentimes the public who hears you contradict authoritative teachings don't distinguish the various degrees of authority with which the Church speaks and, furthermore, are usually not well-educated enough to judge whether you have reasonable grounds for disagreement.
    The second part is merely acknowledging the shakiness of human reason.

  1625. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:26:00 with 0 likes

    (in evidence of which see Descartes et sequaces eius)

  1626. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T18:29:00 with 1 likes

    We agree to agree, except when we don't...
    Protestants agree to disagree, except when they don't...

  1627. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T18:30:00 with 3 likes

    Strictly speaking, it's close to that: it means that one owes in trust and loyalty full assent of mind and will to propositions taught with regular authority (not merely that one owes it to the Church to be "slow to think the opposite"), *unless* one's informed (and there are clear criteria for "information") mind and conscience cannot but dissent, in which case, dissent must remain private and the public teaching not openly contradicted, though prudent questions in principle can be posed depending on the degree of authority which the proposition was taught, and one's own state in life.

  1628. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T18:31:00 with 3 likes

    That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say.

  1629. Lauren Ogrodnick at 2014-08-24T19:37:00 with 1 likes

    There usually is a better way to say what you are trying to say Edward Langley (said with the utmost charity and in friendship )

  1630. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T19:58:00 with 3 likes

    However, Catherine's settling of the initial question has also been tried before. It doesn't answer Pere-whatever's objections. Frankly, I think the greatest problem with his critique is his misunderstanding of "wisdom" - it's various meanings and places, and his misapplication of it

  1631. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:02:00 with 0 likes

    JA, you wish I settled it.

  1632. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T20:03:00 with 2 likes

    you settled it in principle. practice will prove to be another thing, I'm sure

  1633. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:04:00 with 1 likes

    As Michael says, it's already been settled many times before. But that doesn't keep us from trying to reach an infinite number of comments. (And yes I think we should eventually discuss both 'infinite' and 'number'.)

  1634. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:06:00 with 0 likes

    transfinite.. have you studied your Georg Cantor? Is it aleph-null or greater?

  1635. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:06:00 with 3 likes

    No, I went to TAC.

  1636. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:07:00 with 1 likes

    bwahahahahaha.... I forgot, the program with a huge amount of math doesn't study math....

  1637. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:09:00 with 1 likes

    Far too much for me. Remember, TAC doesn't pretend to teach theology OR math. Just the historical development of mathematics.

  1638. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:28:00 with 1 likes

    then what the hell does it pretend to teach? Perescott? You seem to know everything...

  1639. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:29:00 with 1 likes

    History of mathematics. (Are you suggesting I'm another incarnation of the friendly thread troll?) Well, maybe philosophy of mathematics too. I don't know, maybe it does pretend to teach math. But then I really wouldn't have gone there.

  1640. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:30:00 with 0 likes

    oh yeah... I forgot

  1641. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:32:00 with 1 likes

    My cousin is a math person and there was nowhere near enough mathematics for her.

  1642. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:38:00 with 0 likes

    But really the only reason they (we) study mathematics at all is because Plato says in the Republic that mathematics is a necessary preparation for the philosopher. Or I think he says something like that. (Edit: this is unfair -- they also study mathematics for its own sake and contemplation of the beautiful and all that too.)

  1643. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:34:00 with 1 likes

    Of course, because as Mr. Kenz or someone pointed out, you only get as far as basic high school calculus or something (okay, maybe a smattering of archaic non-Euclidean stuff), but it's not really the whole point of the program. It's only to make us nice little logical thinkers -- for the sake of philosophy, which is the handmaid of theology...

  1644. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T20:48:00 with 1 likes

    Which we don't study like nice little magisterium-bots, thank heavens. We're allowed to question what it means, including what the magisterium itself means. (Though I guess we probably are magisterium-bots in the end. I don't know.)

  1645. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:40:00 with 0 likes

    and as an 18 year old know-nothing what "straight line" means. Self evident to the wise, and all that

  1646. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:42:00 with 2 likes

    “The mathematician does not study pure mathematics because it is useful; he studies it because he delights in it and he delights in it because it is beautiful.”
    ― Jules Henri Poincaré
    stick that in your transcendental pipe and smoke it, Peterson!

  1647. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:44:00 with 2 likes

    with transcendental tobacco

  1648. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T20:50:00 with 4 likes

    ^ isn't that called pot?

  1649. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:50:00 with 1 likes

    maybe in Cali.... here in the midwest we call it "reefer"

  1650. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T20:51:00 with 0 likes

    Where in the midwest are you? We call it "pot" in WI.

  1651. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T20:53:00 with 1 likes

    Hippies!

  1652. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T20:58:00 with 0 likes

    "magisterium-bot"

  1653. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-24T21:00:00 with 3 likes

    I was called that recently.

  1654. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-24T21:01:00 with 4 likes

    I asked Tom Sundaram a legalistic question recently, and answered as the self-dubbed LEGALISM BOT.

  1655. John Haggard at 2014-08-24T21:04:00 with 6 likes

    I'm just trying to do my part to get this post to two thousand comments.

  1656. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T21:11:00 with 2 likes

    is transcendental tobacco "magisterium-pot"?

  1657. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T21:27:00 with 2 likes

    every time someone says "-bot" I just think hedonism bot
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5JxIrn4OVs
    Hedonism Bot - Let the Games Begin

  1658. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T21:48:00 with 0 likes

    Thomas Aquinas College states in its Charter that the metaphysics it proposes "is necessary" for the "full development of theology." This is false pretense. The contrary is true. In fact, revelation and assent to divinely revealed truths is what is necessary to the full development of theology. This is what the Church teaches, de Fide. So, again, the college has it completely backwards.

  1659. Michael Beitia at 2014-08-24T21:51:00 with 3 likes

    again, you're making it up as you go along, Perewhatever.
    You're the one calling it metaphysics (and defining metaphysics other than St. Thomas)

  1660. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T21:58:00 with 0 likes

    The college itself, in its Charter, defines metaphysics as knowledge of God which is reasoned to, then states that this kind of knowledge is "necessary for the full development of theology." This statement is false, and contrary to the Church's infallible dogma on supernatural revelation in the order of knowledge.
    I am not making this up as I go along. This is the argument that the college puts forward. And it is a false pretense.
    So what does it matter if someone reads more Aristotle and Thomas than another, if they are in material heresy?

  1661. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-24T22:47:00 with 2 likes

    The claim they're making is about the knowledge reasoned to (the conclusions), and not the way one gets there (one can get there by reasoning or by divine revelation). And IIRC it's Thomism 101 that there is a difference between special and general metaphysics (cf. De ente et essentia ... or perhaps the commentary on Boethius' De Trinitate ... can't recall and too lazy to look it up). The mistake you're accusing them of would be one only an idiot would make.

  1662. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:02:00 with 0 likes

    The claim the college is making is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology; namely, sacred theology, theology which proceeds from revelation. This false claim is a material heresy. The college defines metaphysics specifically as that science which leads to knowledge of God by natural reason. Then the college says that this metaphysics is NECESSARY for the full development of theology. This is false. This is heresy. This runs counter to the Church's infallible teaching on grace. Metaphysics is no way necessary for the development of sacred theology or for a believer to possess wisdom without qualification. On the contrary, as the Church teaches, revelation is necessary for the perfection of reason.
    "But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology." (Thomas Aquinas College, Founding and Governing Document; VII. Liberal Education, Its Parts and the Order Among Them; para. 7)

  1663. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:31:00 with 3 likes

    "development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox.

  1664. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:31:00 with 0 likes

    Thomas Aquinas College also employs a hard and heavy interpretation of doctrine. Doctrine is used at Thomas Aquinas College to support this material heresy that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This gives the wrong impression of theology and the Faith. Doctrine properly understood leads to human freedom. The way it is employed at Thomas Aquinas College leads to limitations of being truly Catholic. So, what is the point of reading the most Aristotle and Thomas of you get the Faith wrong?

  1665. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:32:00 with 6 likes

    "heresy" is a big word, especially when deriving that conclusion based on an elementary misreading of a very uncontroversial text

  1666. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:35:00 with 0 likes

    Material heresy is actually pretty common. What's remarkable here is that the founders of Thomas Aquinas College actually believed that metaphysics is NECESSARY to the full development of sacred theology, and that you don't see this. This is a very basic blunder, and contrary to the Church's de fidei teaching on grace, revelation and the relationship between Faith and reason.

  1667. Edward Langley at 2014-08-24T23:37:00 with 3 likes

    You keep using English, I don't think it means what you think it means.

  1668. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:39:00 with 4 likes

    Peregrine I have answered you precisely, and you simply repeat your assertions without answering my argument or attending my distinctions. This isn't looking good for your case.

  1669. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 3 likes

    "The purpose of the required philosophy courses is to assist students in a philosophical understanding of God, his creation, the nature of the human person, and certain philosophical errors which influence contemporary thought and scholarship, with the ultimate aims of providing a philosophical foundation for theological studies and of enabling students to present the Faith more reasonably and effectively."

  1670. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 0 likes

    Who said that?

  1671. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:40:00 with 2 likes

    Heretics.

  1672. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:41:00 with 4 likes

    More heresy:
    "Christendom College acknowledges in its curriculum the essential role played by St. Thomas Aquinas in Catholic theology. Courses in philosophy and theology are taught according to the spirit, method, and principles of the Common Doctor."

  1673. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:42:00 with 0 likes

    Here we see a collapse into an inability to respond seriously to a very straightforward flaw revealed about Thomas Aquinas College. It teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is what the Charter of the college states clearly. This claim is a material heresy. No one responds to this fact, other than to say it is a wrong interpretation, and that this pat denial is a precise response. This is ridiculous.
    This is what the Charter states, and this is what the College teaches: metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. This claim is false, and contrary to what the Church teaches.

  1674. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:43:00 with 0 likes

    "86-credit-hour core curriculum, ordered by Thomistic wisdom within a historical matrix"
    Heresy
    "Catholic Theology and Thomist Philosophy play a central role"

  1675. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:43:00 with 2 likes

    I am going to repost what I wrote above. Please answer it, or stop talking.
    "development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox"

  1676. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:44:00 with 1 likes

    that is not a pat denial- that is an argument based on a distinction, and you have ignored both

  1677. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:44:00 with 0 likes

    Blue Book?

  1678. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:46:00 with 4 likes

    Man, I used to feel shitty about going to Franciscan, cause we didn't even try to pretend like we had rigour and weren't very clever or bright, but this thread has me feeling pretty good about it now, all things considered.

  1679. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:49:00 with 1 likes

    More heresy, no doubt:
    "Finally, he studies philosophy, not just for the sake of a knowledge of reality, but also because philosophy serves to increase his understanding of the Creator of all things. He studies each of these disciplines for its own sake, but also uses them in the service of something higher. The Catholic tradition, then, does not destroy or diminish liberal education, but rather perfects it. The Catholic free man studies all of the disciplines both for their own sake and in the service of Theology, the 'Queen of the Sciences.'"

  1680. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:51:00 with 0 likes

    Peterson: the quotation you cite does not appear to be a material heresy. However, TAC claims, in its Charter (Blue Book), cited above, that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is heresy. The Church teaches de fide (infallibly) the opposite.
    JA Escalante: you are adding heresy to heresy now. Metaphysics is not necessary for the full articulation of sacred theology, revelation or Wisdom, and by claiming that metaphysics was necessary to the Church's infallible teaching from Nicea, you are really showing what you lack. Again, this is false. And you are beginning to sound completely arrogrant here, which is a clear effect of your flawed education. So I will wish you a good night sleep.
    Again, material heresy is common, and when you claim that metaphysics was necessary for the full articulation of doctrine at Nicea, you really are in the realm of material heresy.

  1681. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:51:00 with 6 likes

  1682. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes

    This is sad.

  1683. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes

    Hahahahha

  1684. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 0 likes

    oh dear

  1685. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:52:00 with 5 likes

    let's imagine Nicaea without metaphysical discourse. Go for it

  1686. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-24T23:55:00 with 3 likes

    The idea that theology doesn't presuppose philosophy in some way to some extent is asinine. Grace presupposes nature. First in the natural, then in the supernatural.
    Revelation speaks through what is natural. It speaks via human beings who have reason and live within nature. The study of God ceases to be study for you - it ceases to be possible. What you suggest is that somehow theology is it's own universe - no need for a handmaid - not for humans, I suppose.

  1687. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:55:00 with 1 likes

    Does anyone study St Thomas seriously without studying metaphysics? And doesn't St Thomas still hold pride of place among all theologians? I don't see the problem.

  1688. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-24T23:56:00 with 1 likes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIDMhwT6srI
    "What are the Roots of the Distinction between Theology and Philosophy?"
    Professor Jean-Luc Marion explored the supposed conflict between philosophy and theology in light of the present situation of philosophy -- that of the end o...

  1689. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:56:00 with 0 likes

    The doctrine of the Trinity was already very much a part of the sacred liturgy in the Eastern, Western and Oriental church's at the time of Nicea. What I think we see at Nicea is sacred tradition and the Holy Spirit through the Magisterium affirming tradition, and also helping to perfect a line of reasonable metaphysics. But to suggest that Nicean doctrine would have been impossible without metaphysics, or that metaphysics was necessary for Nicean doctrine to occur is really ludicrous. Sorry.

  1690. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:57:00 with 0 likes

    Although I believe Peregrine Scott Wineberg has been calling all of St Thomas metaphysics. Which is just dumb.

  1691. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:57:00 with 0 likes

    Why do you believe that, Jody?

  1692. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 0 likes

    Which?

  1693. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 2 likes

    I see. Nicaea defined its doctrine using purely Biblical categories, and then, on the side, as a favor to philosophy, perfected a line of metaphysics. Just on the side, you know. Nothing to do with the definition.

  1694. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-24T23:58:00 with 0 likes

    That I have been calling all of St. Thomas metaphysics?

  1695. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-24T23:59:00 with 2 likes

    You have been referring to all that is studied in the theology tutorial as metaphysics. You won't allow the study of the Summa to be called theology. Am I missing something in the last 1600 messages?

  1696. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:00:00 with 2 likes

    Oh look, the traditional Catholic Encyclopedia is heretical!
    "The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "

  1697. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:00:00 with 0 likes

    The claim that TAC makes is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. No one suggested that understanding metaphysics is not good when you study Thomas, Jody. But that is not the false claim the college is making. I thought you students understood distinctions.

  1698. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes

    Not just good but necessary.

  1699. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes

    ?

  1700. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 6 likes

    Sam Rocha - so while you FUers were speaking in tongues and skipping class in favor of cooing electric koolaid Jesus rawk, Peregrine and friends were making sure they swore that Lincoln was an evil man on a bible wrapped in the confederate flag so they would be allowed to receive communion.
    Meanwhile, at Thomas Aquinas College...

  1701. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:01:00 with 0 likes

    Philosophy provides the language for theology. It isn't more important; it is required to talk about it most clearly.

  1702. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:02:00 with 0 likes

    JA, the nature of metaphysics determining its nature from sacred theology means that grace perfects nature. The Charter of the college is not sayinbg this. It is saying the opposite.
    You guys seem to be in apoplexy. Sorry.

  1703. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 0 likes

    hahahaha

  1704. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 5 likes

    "At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics.":

  1705. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:03:00 with 1 likes

    ^^ money quote

  1706. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 2 likes

    that thing had an imprimatur and nihil obstat

  1707. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, philosophy provided language for Thomas. The sacred theology of the Church is broader than this. Sorry they don't teach you this.

  1708. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes

    So we are back to studying St Thomas just isn't enough.

  1709. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:04:00 with 0 likes

    There are encyclicals that address that

  1710. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:05:00 with 0 likes

    Depending on is not the same thing necessistating.

  1711. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes

    Oh really?

  1712. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes

    No, Jody, it's more about what the Church teaches as sacred theology, not Thomas' theology. Thomas erred. The Church does not.

  1713. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:06:00 with 0 likes

    Yep, really.

  1714. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:07:00 with 0 likes

    Metaphysics is not necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Revelation is. This quote reveals the TAC skew, its material heresy.

  1715. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:07:00 with 0 likes

    A plant may depend on water. But water does not give a plant its being.

  1716. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:11:00 with 0 likes

    So, if you believe that Nicea may have depended on a western metaphysics, that is fine. But if you believe that metaphysics is necessary for what the Church teaches at Nicea, and in its Councils and in Her infallible teachings, and in its theology, and in the sacred theology of the Church, then you are a material heretic. This is a false doctrine of Thomas Aquinas College. And it is simply amazing the founders got this wrong.

  1717. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:12:00 with 2 likes

    Am I the only person on this thread who is starting to feel a bit awkward?

  1718. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 0 likes

    If you believe in the false doctrine that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of theology, you should feel awkward.

  1719. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 1 likes

    Dude, I stopped trying to follow what you seem to think passes for an argument at triple digits. Now I just wonder if you are a savant or just nuts, which might also be mutually inclusive.

  1720. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 4 likes

    Sam Rocha: I'm beyond awkward. A jaded face in Zuckerberg's Book of life.

  1721. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 2 likes

    Sam: But we're so close to 2000 comments!

  1722. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:14:00 with 2 likes

    And then there's THAT.

  1723. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 2 likes

    Nevermind, what was I thinking. Carry on, carry on, carry the fuck on.

  1724. Andrew Whaley at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 4 likes

    I saw this thread had exploded, speculated how it got that way, and it would seem I was right. LOL.

  1725. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 4 likes

    Bwhahaha...this thread just is, man.

  1726. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:15:00 with 1 likes

    Sam, Dude, you seem like a really malformed character. I'll pray for you.

  1727. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:16:00 with 3 likes

    Thanks. Malformed doesn't even begin to tell the story. But toss some prayers for me when you're not slaying dragons on the interwebz.

  1728. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:17:00 with 1 likes

    I'm just here for the LOL's.

  1729. Ryan Penn at 2014-08-25T00:17:00 with 1 likes

    Peregrine, the howling troll. Why don't you attend to that last quote JA just listed; you can't possibly believe your earlier comment did so with any coherence can you? Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!! Were the unicorns with you when you came to that conclusion?

  1730. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes

    Recap: material heresy revealed in TAC Charter which states that philosophy is necessary for the completion of sacred theology; in other words, if you want to study sacred theology, you better go to TAC. TAC apologists grow apoplectic.

  1731. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 1 likes

    Sam you're my fav

  1732. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes

    Aw, shucks...

  1733. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:18:00 with 0 likes

    Ryan, I am not a howling troll. Your rhetorical question "Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!!" simply begs the question.

  1734. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:19:00 with 4 likes

    So can we safely assume we all need real hobbies? I recommend rock climbing.

  1735. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:19:00 with 0 likes

    BTW, are any of you familiar with any of the Church's dogmas on sacred theology and revelation?

  1736. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 1 likes

    Ummmm at least one accredited institution says I am.

  1737. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 2 likes

    I really take exception to you (Scott Peregrine) accusing the founders of anything when they are not here to defend themselves.
    Did you know it is a sin to assume (and I would guess another sin to publicly accuse) another of a mortal sin?
    Am I the only one who can imagine Mr Berquist taking Scott's argument apart syllable by syllable? Dr McArthur would just thump and let him have it all in one blast (if he bothered to address such ridiculous arguments)

  1738. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes

    For hobbies, I think going to a Catholic college that actually teaches what the Church teaches is a great place to start.

  1739. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes

    So there's that. But really Peregrine can't we just fight about molanism?

  1740. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:20:00 with 0 likes

    It's far less ridiculous

  1741. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, I love your loyalty to the founders. If you were only half as loyal to the Church are Her teachings as you were to a group of extremist academics...

  1742. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes

    Again -- the whole of the church's hierarchy has not only turned a blind eye to the 'heresy factory' that is know as TAC but it actually endorses and supports it. We could list the cardinals and bishops. My own among them.

  1743. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 2 likes

    And that's not a hobby. Go talk to Dr Long and Waldstein if you want to fight about my theology credentials

  1744. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 0 likes

    Molanism?

  1745. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 3 likes

    IN A WORLD of material heresy...ONE MAN...

  1746. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:21:00 with 5 likes

    But seriously, Peregrine, what giant piece of work are you procrastinating on? I got this grant to write that I'd rather gargle broken glass than do and this is doing the trick. I can't begin to imagine what you're staying away from? Mother-in-law in town?

  1747. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 0 likes

    one man... and about 42 dogmas of the Church.

  1748. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 1 likes

    Sorry Molinism. Thanks siri

  1749. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 0 likes

    Brian kelly writes those endorsements, Jody, not your bishop.

  1750. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:22:00 with 3 likes

    will face the hordes of Thomas Aquinas College grads...ALONE...

  1751. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 0 likes

    Um. I can talk to my bishop directly. He isn't talking through anything.

  1752. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 0 likes

    Me, and the elephant in the room.

  1753. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 1 likes

    That's just ridiculous Scott PB

  1754. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:23:00 with 3 likes

    So Matthew what are you avoiding tonight?

  1755. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 0 likes

    Your bishop is not what the Church teaches. Ask him is metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology.

  1756. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 2 likes

    My wife is reading over the job app I just wrote in political theory and I'm writing notes on a documentary proposal re LA political corruption

  1757. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:24:00 with 5 likes

    Stay on topic, Marina. The topic is I was just going to do something but I can't recall and that butter in the freezer needs to thaw but I think I'll watch another Ice Bucket fail video...

  1758. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 2 likes

    No -- according to you Scott PB, no one bishop, no cardinal -- but you alone are the voice of the Church.

  1759. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 3 likes

    I'm reading Much Ado About Nothing. I like this part:
    "I wonder that you will still be talking, Signor Benedick.
    Nobody marks you."

  1760. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:25:00 with 2 likes

    Don't worry, I doubt I will get the job.

  1761. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:26:00 with 1 likes

    Like a true academic.

  1762. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:26:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, you should study the Faith a bit more. You would see the falacy behind the statement that rational science is necessary for sacred theology. Sacred theology is reasonable, but it is necessary for an accurate metaphysics, not the other way around. This is what the Church teaches infallibly.

  1763. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:28:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, everyone I have talked to, who has had any contact with TAC alum, thinks you guys are nuts... a breeding ground of all sorts of heresies.

  1764. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:28:00 with 4 likes

    Did I miss a meeting regarding classical antiquity and patristics? Damn. I *always* miss that meeting.

  1765. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:29:00 with 4 likes

    <raises hand> Not this guy. Good chaps at TAC, if a bit square and not much fun at the pub (even thought they think they're a hoot, they're usually not).

  1766. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:29:00 with 3 likes

    Ok Pere, can I call you Pere? We're all mad here. Haven't you heard?

  1767. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:30:00 with 3 likes

    This summer, watch a troll transform: INTO SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER BEFORE.
    Peregrine Bonaventure: THREAD DRAGON

  1768. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:30:00 with 2 likes

    Sam you have never seen me in a pub. Don't talk nonsense

  1769. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 1 likes

    And I'm damn witty thank you very much.
    See what I did there?

  1770. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 2 likes

    Sam Rocha come to Berkeley and I will vindicate the TAC pub spirit for you

  1771. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:31:00 with 3 likes

    So close to 2000, so close.

  1772. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:32:00 with 0 likes

    So, Thomas Aquinas College, in regards to Faith and Reason, teaches the exact opposite of what the Church teaches, and your response is there's been a misunderstanding... and that I'm a troll. OK, that's insane, but best regards to you all.

  1773. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 0 likes

    I think I should play a show down there this year, I'll letcha know. But I'll bring a book and a pillow, just in case.

  1774. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 4 likes

    Sure. File a complaint with Cardinal Burke. He spoke there so I'm sure he has the address.

  1775. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:33:00 with 4 likes

    Sam Rocha, your words ring true, but they reveal you haven't been drinking with the right grads. First off, distrust people who graduated in four years...
    You need to play LA. We can make this happen.

  1776. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 1 likes

    I don't think they ever had a show there Sam. You could play it at Steckle though. That could work.

  1777. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 4 likes

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
    Stahp.
    (for what follows, please interpret ALL CAPS as italics. Seriously, Facebook, why can't we write in italics in comments?!)
    Isn't SOME KIND of metaphysics necessary for Sacred Theology, at least in the sense that WE NEED SOME VOCABULARY in order to talk about non-physical things? I'm not saying that Ye Perfect Metaphysics will be in place prior to any work in Sacred Theology, and in fact Mr. Bonaventure seems quite right that Sacred Theology would perfect metaphysics. But... we still need some WORDS to use to even begin the science, right?

  1778. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 2 likes

    No, no, the true 4-year TACers will bring the book and the pillow. They might even share.

  1779. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 0 likes

    Word. Seriously, toss my contact and I'll send them to my people (which is two people).

  1780. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:34:00 with 0 likes

    I guess I know enough of my Faith to be hired to work at the diocesan and parish level. But my bishop sounds like he falls under Peregrine's definition of 'heretic'.

  1781. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 2 likes

    I knew I was on to something, but I see I made a category mistake. I still need empirical, no, *phenomenological* evidence.

  1782. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 0 likes

    Yes Emily -- exactly. We need a language.

  1783. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T00:35:00 with 3 likes

    well I really am a heretic from the RC point of view but I know what the Catholic Church teaches and I know what the TAC Charter says and there is no problem there whatever, as I have demonstrated

  1784. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:36:00 with 2 likes

    Dude Jody no worries. It's not damnable if you didn't receive a coherent explanation of why. Worst case is material, tops.

  1785. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:36:00 with 0 likes

    I'll leave you with one parting thought. Go to the "Blue Book" and in part VII see where it states that metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. Then compare this false statement with the Church's dogma on faith, revelation and the sacred science. This, by definition, is a heresy. Also note the vulgar comments and the sophistry coming from so many TAC alum. Then decide for yourself.

  1786. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:37:00 with 0 likes

    We're at 1,891 -- I'm sure we can make 2000 before bed.

  1787. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:37:00 with 1 likes

    I'm only sophistical when no one is listening.

  1788. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 5 likes

    What you don't understand, Peregrine, is the TAC is actually an acronym for Toots Apes and Cheese, and its function it to slowly brew minds into leather flower pots, with the little holes in the bottom so excess water can drain out. Now, why, sir, are you quoting the lost booklets of Wittgenstein? I may switch to your side if that's intentional. GEM Anscombe anyone? A tart, perhaps?

  1789. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 1 likes

    And Sam Rocha - def drink with JA Escalante

  1790. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 4 likes

    Will someone please do a statistical analysis of the times that Peregine has said good bye in this thread?

  1791. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 0 likes

    JA, you have not demonstrated anything. TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This contradicts the Church. You have falsely claimed that metaphysics was necessary for the full development of doctrine at Nicea. This is totally false and heretical.

  1792. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 1 likes

    I liked Anscombe. She has thoughts.

  1793. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:38:00 with 0 likes

    As I was saying ^^

  1794. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:39:00 with 2 likes

    I like people with thoughts. Darn that liberal education

  1795. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 0 likes

    The TAC Charter also claims that the curriculum places an emphasis on the doctrines of the Church instead of the history of the Church. Does anyone else see a problem here... maybe stretching things a bit?

  1796. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 1 likes

    I will miss this thread.

  1797. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:41:00 with 2 likes

    You know I might be mad. Ron MacArthur suggested my propensity for the word "like" indicated as much. Does that mean Pere and a TAC founder agree on something? *gasp* say it ain't so Sam .

  1798. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 1 likes

    Philosophy of Education at UBC?? Good Lord!

  1799. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes

    I want to elect Jody's bishop the next Pope.

  1800. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes

    I'll miss you, metaphysically first, then theologically -- but never biblically -- Peregrine.

  1801. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:42:00 with 0 likes

    Hey his syllabus sounds interesting

  1802. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 1 likes

    My syllabus of ERRORS, of course.

  1803. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 3 likes

    There is a spin off page dedicated to this thread (in case you missed it): https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever?fref=ts
    The Neverending Thread
    This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
    Community: 57 like this

  1804. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:43:00 with 1 likes

    Well Sam those who can do. But as you are teaching education isn't that ironic?

  1805. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 1 likes

    Peregrine, by the way, has just launched a new offensive at me, based on my subfield and place of employment.

  1806. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes

    Is metaphysics necessary to the fulfillment of the philosophy of education at UBC, or does it not even depend on it?

  1807. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes

    You went to UBC?

  1808. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes

    But you have both. And that is something.

  1809. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:44:00 with 0 likes

    I teach at UBC.

  1810. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 1 likes

    Does UBC mean University Before Metaphysics?

  1811. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 1 likes

    Ah. I'm outside of Vancouver. So we share a "heretic" bishop

  1812. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 2 likes

    No that's an M

  1813. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:45:00 with 0 likes

    Peregrine, my good man, you just a decent joke!

  1814. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, you ought to come to my show at Regent College this week, seriously...

  1815. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 2 likes

    Andrews Thomas Aquinas College. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. My eyes have been opened Scotty Boy! Thanks.

  1816. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 1 likes

    Vancouver is tragically beautiful. There are no theologians in Vancouver.

  1817. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes

    C'mon y'all, keep it going. I'm not going to bed until we hit 2,000!

  1818. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 1 likes

    So does Peregrine know you or was he stalking you Sam?

  1819. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:46:00 with 0 likes

    No one said you are scum and villainy. Just that your founders were reactionaries, who perpetrate material heresy.

  1820. Matt Badley at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes

    Just sticking my head in here to make sure things aren't totally crazy.

  1821. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes

    Jody, I hope you never stalk anyone. That would really be scary.

  1822. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes

    Stalking.

  1823. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes

    Again with the recognition of sarcasm!

  1824. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 2 likes

    ah come on. You gave us more credit than that. We have become a heretic factory

  1825. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 0 likes

    It is about time Matt showed up

  1826. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes

    "A breeding ground of heresy."

  1827. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:47:00 with 1 likes

    I just moved here, but I am already feeling VERY heretical, must be the water.

  1828. Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 4 likes

    We should probably look at what we mean by "necessary." It seems to me, Peregrine, that JA Escalante has already given argument for the necessity of metaphysics in theology. Is water "necessary" for a fish? I think you're taking one sense of necessity and thinking it means something we're not saying.

  1829. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 2 likes

    Floridated water, no doubt. It saps your vital essence.

  1830. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 0 likes

    Dang, Vancouver is the anchor for the Catholic Church in Canada. We are orthodox. Not learned. But orthodox.

  1831. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 2 likes

    To your question, Peregrine: You may want to read my book. It's short and has pictures. http://samueldrocha.wix.com/primer
    A Primer for Philosophy and Education, by Samuel D. Rocha
    samueldrocha.wix.com
    A Primer for Philosophy and Education is a site promoting an illustrated book written by Sam Rocha.

  1832. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:48:00 with 1 likes

    No worries Sam, I do not think God holds UBC to the same standards as TAC. After all, they read more Aristotle than anyone.

  1833. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 4 likes

    I love how intrepid newcomers actually pop in and say something intelligent. Thank you.

  1834. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 0 likes

    Whew! Thanks man! I was pretty worried about that.

  1835. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 1 likes

    If Vancouver is orthodox, then you must be a relativist.

  1836. Bekah Sims at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 2 likes

    Andrews Well the alum are proficient breeders, good to know they're squeezing heresies in the with all the babies.

  1837. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 0 likes

    Relativism works pretty well in relationships.

  1838. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:49:00 with 1 likes

    Oh good, it even has ullustrations.

  1839. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes

    Yep.

  1840. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes

    Or read the book on education by the "heretic" (according to Peregrine Scott) Archbishop J Michael Miller: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Sees-Teaching.../dp/1933184205
    The Holy See's Teaching on Catholic Schools
    www.amazon.com
    This book clearly explains what our Catholic schools should be -- and offers you practical advice on how to judge whether they are! At a conference at Catholic University in the Fall of 2005, Archbishop J. Michael Miller, the man responsible for Catholic education around the world, distilled for ...

  1841. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:50:00 with 0 likes

    Just make sure you teach your children the faith, before you turn them back over to TAC.

  1842. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:51:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, for the record, I never called your bishop a heretic. That's not even funny.

  1843. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes

    If Relativism works well in relationships, Christ works even better.

  1844. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 4 likes

    My children are, presently, red-blooded pagans, reading Homer, Norse myths, and Tolkien. Even Lewis is too soggy a Christian cracker for their taste.

  1845. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes

    Tell that to *your* relatives.

  1846. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:52:00 with 0 likes

    Sam, I will pray for your children. You must teach them Faith. Teach them about Christ, as a person

  1847. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 0 likes

    Well, you said he didn't support the College (Brian Kelly said he did?). You said if he did he is a heretic. But he does, he knows about the College. He is a lover and student of St Thomas. And given his jobs prior to this one, I think he knows a thing or 2 about post secondary education in the Catholic tradition.

  1848. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 0 likes

    Sam -- do you homeschool?

  1849. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 1 likes

    Sort of.

  1850. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:53:00 with 1 likes

    It's VERY complicated.

  1851. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 0 likes

    ah

  1852. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 0 likes

    Jody, that's not what I said. I said if he endorsed the college, that still does not take away from the fact that the college is wrong and in material heresy about Faith and Reason. This does not mean he is a heretic, and I never said he was, you silly girl.

  1853. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:54:00 with 1 likes

    But, the short answer is, yes and no.

  1854. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 1 likes

    Ah, yes and no. You must have gone to TAC Sam.

  1855. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 3 likes

    It sounds better than subjecting your kids to the crap in most schools (I'm looking at you, YA Literature).

  1856. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 2 likes

    Rarely affirm, seldom deny, always distinguish.

  1857. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 0 likes

    He is only one bishop who has endorsed and supported the college. There are many. How can they be so wrong as to support a school based on heresy?

  1858. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:55:00 with 0 likes

    I'll pray for your computer. I hope it keeps running. We need you.

  1859. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes

    Ah, but Jody, you said I said he was a heretic, when you knew I did not. What does that tell you?

  1860. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes

    Who do you pray to Sam?

  1861. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 2 likes

    Anthony Hopkins gave a sweet talk at TAC. That has to count for something?

  1862. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 1 likes

    that this has gone on too darn long

  1863. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 2 likes

    To get my 6th-12th grade teaching license, I had to take a CLASS in YA Lit. Yes, there was a GRADUATE-LEVEL CLASS devoted to this.
    Just,... gah.

  1864. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:56:00 with 0 likes

    BTW, Sam, have you done the Grouse grind?

  1865. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 3 likes

    Sam you pray to Anthony Hopkins?

  1866. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 1 likes

    Poor Emily. Did you have to read Twilight?

  1867. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes

    Is he even dead?

  1868. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 1 likes

    Anthony Hopkins did not. Did he?

  1869. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah

  1870. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 0 likes

    It's totes on the webs

  1871. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:57:00 with 2 likes

    No! Thankfully, even they saw that that shouldn't be on the list!

  1872. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T00:58:00 with 1 likes

    25 and counting. Does the ball drop?

  1873. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 0 likes

    Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
    and never brought to mind?

  1874. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 1 likes

    It depends what you mean the term 'pray.' But I won't be obtuse, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, I pray to God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the saints, Mary, my dead relatives, Cervantes and Beatrice, trees, Francis and so on...

  1875. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T00:59:00 with 2 likes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2IW08L1gLY
    Sir Anthony Hopkins Talks to the Students of Thomas Aquinas College
    On Thursday, March 29, students at Thomas Aquinas College were treated to an hour-long question-and-answer session with a visitor who is widely considered am...

  1876. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes

    I didn't know they had Catholics at UBC.

  1877. Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 4 likes

    Theology: The study of things taught definitively by the Magisterium.
    The Magisterium: Peregrine Bonaventure

  1878. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes

    I have no idea what the Grouse Grind is. Sorry.

  1879. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes

    It had better drop. It's well past 12 midnight here in Michigan.

  1880. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes

    Don't you know we're EVERYWHERE!?

  1881. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 2 likes

    No they don't. They only have heretics.

  1882. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 0 likes

    Uh oh.

  1883. Edward Langley at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 5 likes

    Index Institutorum Prohibitorum:
    1. TAC
    2. Thomas Aquinas College
    3. TAC

  1884. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:00:00 with 1 likes

    Edward -- you finally got it.

  1885. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes

    We could always add UBC

  1886. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes

    Blue Book (add that to the Index)

  1887. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 0 likes

    Well, if Anthony Hopkins talked to the students at TAC, that must mean they're all clear on the central issue of metaphysics and sacred theology then. What did he talk about?

  1888. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 1 likes

    I also nominate Steubenville, since I'm living here.

  1889. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 0 likes

    Being a movie star

  1890. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:01:00 with 4 likes

    Wait, are we going to have Y2K problems when we hit 2,000??

  1891. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes

    Shakespeare.

  1892. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes

    He got bored and took a tour

  1893. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes

    OH SHIT!

  1894. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 0 likes

    Blue book says...

  1895. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes

    And method acting.

  1896. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 3 likes

    We're at 2000 -- you all have to go to bed now!

  1897. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes

    or pray

  1898. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 1 likes

    Lovely talk.

  1899. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:02:00 with 4 likes

    WE DID IT, PEEPS!

  1900. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 1 likes

    I'M GOING FOR Y3K!!

  1901. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 4 likes

    Ah, where are all these balloons and confetti coming from????

  1902. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 2 likes

    SO proud.

  1903. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 3 likes

    Man of the match goes to the indefatigable Peregrine Bonaventure.

  1904. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 2 likes

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
    Kool & The Gang - Celebration
    Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group

  1905. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 0 likes

    Blue Book says metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Infallible dogma says revelation neccessary for the fulfillment of metaphysics.

  1906. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:03:00 with 1 likes

    So anyways

  1907. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:04:00 with 2 likes

    I clearly don't know a thing about sacred theo (won't my profs be sad) but I do love little kittens...

  1908. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:04:00 with 5 likes

    Wait! You didn't get the balloons and confetti? Update your app.

  1909. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 1 likes

    Emily knows how to party.

  1910. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 0 likes

    Necessary can be said in may ways. Scott doesn't get that.

  1911. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 1 likes

    When people say the internet is a waste of time, this is proof of why they are right and why I don't care.

  1912. Jody Haaf Garneau at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 2 likes

    ah. I'm going to bed… 2000 was my goal.

  1913. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 0 likes

    I don't think you really need to know anything about sacred theo to go to TAC.

  1914. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T01:05:00 with 5 likes

    I'm going to pour myself a glass of Maker's right after I wash my hands in a Pilate-like manner.

  1915. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 1 likes

    Why thank you, Sam.

  1916. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 2 likes

    I meant at Ave

  1917. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:06:00 with 1 likes

    And way to miss the cultural reference point

  1918. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:07:00 with 0 likes

    I do get that Jody. It's just that it can't be said that way in the case of metaphysics and revelation/sacred theology. That's heresy. The Church made that clear in the 1700s. You don't know what you talk about.

  1919. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:07:00 with 1 likes

    So what do you *really* about sacred theo? I want some really spicy mystical secret dirt now that we're in the third millennium.

  1920. Matthew J. Peterson at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 5 likes

  1921. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 0 likes

    Gnosis. Like Gnocchi only not

  1922. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 1 likes

    Sacred theo is really a poetry Sam. A true myth. There, how's that?

  1923. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 2 likes

    Fax me one Matthew

  1924. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:08:00 with 1 likes

    I love Gnocchi.

  1925. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 0 likes

    Hey man, I'm totally down with what you said right there.

  1926. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 1 likes

    John of the Cross ftw!

  1927. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 2 likes

    Gnostic Gnocchi

  1928. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:09:00 with 3 likes

    Sacred theo is a poetry that melts metaphysics and gets it right.

  1929. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 0 likes

    See? I don't disagree with this.

  1930. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 4 likes

    We could start a great restaurant. Thus solving the liberal arts employment issue

  1931. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 0 likes

    I think melting is a weird word

  1932. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 3 likes

    Metaphysical Melting Mushrooms

  1933. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:10:00 with 3 likes

    Let's all get down!

  1934. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 6 likes

    Let's get metaphysical?

  1935. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 3 likes

    No shrooms. That might send an inadvertent message

  1936. Emily Norppa at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 2 likes

    Ain't no party like a metaphysical party...

  1937. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:11:00 with 3 likes

    If you change physical to metaphysical pop music gets awesome

  1938. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes

    Hey, I made some Augustinian soul music...

  1939. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 1 likes

    Speaking of which buy Sam 's music

  1940. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 0 likes

    I think Marina is a weird name. It sounds like a place where you park your boat.

  1941. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes

    Bingo: http://samueldrocha.wix.com/late-to-love
    late-to-love
    samueldrocha.wix.com

  1942. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:12:00 with 2 likes

    And a mermaid who died

  1943. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 2 likes

    I think we need the material heretics in Europe to wake up and get us all back on track with their definitive statements. It is 6 or 7 by now after all. All this celebration is disordering my soul.

  1944. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes

    Oh, that's sad. Sorry.

  1945. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 3 likes

    Eliot wrote me a poem

  1946. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 1 likes

    I feel like you just changed clothes, Peregrine. Nice new outfit.

  1947. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes

    Isn't Marina also a saint in the Melchite Greek-Catholic Church?

  1948. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:13:00 with 0 likes

    No!

  1949. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 1 likes

    Catherine Ryland, do metaphysics. It's necessary.

  1950. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 2 likes

    She's a Vietnamese martyr too

  1951. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 2 likes

    But my parents were Protestants so I think they just liked it

  1952. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 1 likes

    Thanks Sam, it's my UBC attire.

  1953. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:14:00 with 0 likes

    Wasn't she the first mermaid every canonized?

  1954. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:15:00 with 0 likes

    Right on. Pretty casual here I'm noticing. (We just moved here over a month ago.)

  1955. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:15:00 with 1 likes

    Frome whence? (I like to try to use words like whence whenever I can.)

  1956. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:16:00 with 0 likes

    Is UBC really 100 miles wide?

  1957. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:16:00 with 1 likes

    Can you see West Van from your window?

  1958. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:17:00 with 1 likes

    I grew up in West Van, and I've never told anyone that before.

  1959. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:18:00 with 0 likes

    I live in West Point Grey, as West Van as it gets, besides UBC proper.

  1960. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:18:00 with 0 likes

    So I'm siting in West Van.

  1961. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:19:00 with 0 likes

    Back to this metaphysics thing. Does anyone think that necessary means something other than necessary?

  1962. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:19:00 with 0 likes

    Sam, are you related to the Rochas from Weslaco, TX?

  1963. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:20:00 with 1 likes

    Oh shit. Maybe. My dad was born in Pharr.

  1964. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:20:00 with 0 likes

    Are we talking necessity and sufficiency?

  1965. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:21:00 with 0 likes

    Sam, in your capacity as a resident of West Point Grey, do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?

  1966. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:21:00 with 0 likes

    Does it depend?

  1967. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:22:00 with 3 likes

    There are many senses of the word necessary.

  1968. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:22:00 with 0 likes

    Not necessarily.

  1969. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:23:00 with 1 likes

    If you want a serious answer, you'll have to explain to me exactly what you mean by all those terms. Particularly 'metaphysics,' and the expressions "full development" and "sacred theology."

  1970. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:23:00 with 0 likes

    In what sense is metaphysics necessary for the full development of sacred theology, when the Church teaches that only revelation is?

  1971. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:24:00 with 0 likes

    I more or less think I get what you mean by 'necessity.'

  1972. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:25:00 with 0 likes

    Metaphysics means the rational study of God. Full development means for it to become a complete science. Sacred theology means the science of revealed truths, revealed by God as true, which the Church teaches under its authority.

  1973. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 1 likes

    If you don't mind, what, exactly, do you mean by 'science'?

  1974. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 0 likes

    Isn't the metaphysics in God as knower?

  1975. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 4 likes

    the Church actually doesn't teach that only revelation is necessary; that's the Protestant position. The Church teaches that the magisterium is also necessary for the full development of theology. And continuing to dodge the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't helping you.

  1976. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 1 likes

    I don't care what it *is*, I just want to understand what Peregrine means when he uses those terms.

  1977. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:26:00 with 0 likes

    The way we know something with certainty. Either by reason, or by Faith. Two different ways of knowing.

  1978. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah, shut up, JA.

  1979. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 1 likes

    Doesn't metaphysics just mean study of first principles? You only sort of unintentionally bump into God in the end.

  1980. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 1 likes

    oh such charity!

  1981. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:27:00 with 0 likes

    I think he was joking.

  1982. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes

    Sam, science means how we understand something with certainty. Metaphysics proceeds with reason. Sacred theology proceeds with revelation and assent by faith.

  1983. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes

    "Do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?"
    Well, I don't really know, to tell you the truth. I have a hard time understanding how your puzzle pieces fit together. But, then again, I'm a Franciscan grad, so I'm not as bright as the TAC'ers.

  1984. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:28:00 with 0 likes

    Yeah, I was joking. Now shut up. (Joking.)

  1985. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 0 likes

    what Peregrine means is, theology is like an organism which has all the elements and factors of its own unfolding into final form within itself. Thus, nothing outside it is necessary. This is why he compares it to a poem

  1986. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 1 likes

    I might just go strum a shitty P&W tune on my cheap guitar now...

  1987. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:29:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine- I'm wondering more about on the lines of if faith is imperfect somewhere the knowledge of the thing itself exists

  1988. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 1 likes

    But theology is not fact like an organism, nor a poem

  1989. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 1 likes

    It strikes me, Peregrine, that you use the term 'theology' to describe what many tend to use the term 'metaphysics' for. Perhaps, we have a little language game going on?

  1990. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:30:00 with 0 likes

    Well, it seems to me it is not necessary, because the Church says it is not. But I can see why TAC says it is, because it wants to play up the rational side of the Faith, because of the ideology of its founders. The trouble is, the Faith and sacred theology is in no way dependent on metaphysics, but the other way around. The Church has several doctrines on this. No big deal, it just explain why TAC grads believe they are so smart.

  1991. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 0 likes

    JA go on?

  1992. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 1 likes

    I don't like similes, either. They are not very helpful in this sort of talk.

  1993. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 1 likes

    The Catholic Encyc says theology as a science "depends" upon metaphysics. No one called that heretical

  1994. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:31:00 with 2 likes

    I love you like a love song

  1995. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes

    Natural theology is metaphysics, Sam. We are speaking of natural theology vs sacred theology. Natural theology is not necessary in any sense of the word for the development and fulfillment of sacred theology, unles you are a TAC ideologue teaching heresy.

  1996. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes

    But we can know Natural Theology

  1997. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes

    JA, the Catholic Encyc does not say that. Your eye is biased.

  1998. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 0 likes

    Peregrine will you ever address the propositions in the CE

  1999. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 1 likes

    HAHAHAHA

  2000. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:32:00 with 2 likes

    I mean someone can. I think I still take God's existence on faith. But I think Mr Berquist knew it.

  2001. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes

    I quoted it, Peregrine.

  2002. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 1 likes

    Aha! So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?

  2003. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes

    Perhaps you could link the section here.

  2004. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes

    i did above

  2005. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes

    twice

  2006. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 4 likes

    DO IT AGAIN!!!

  2007. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 0 likes

    Sorry, missed it.

  2008. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:33:00 with 2 likes

    Peregrine keeps dodging it

  2009. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes

    Yes Marina, we know natural theology by reason for the most part, but much of it is revealed in sacred theology. This proves that the sacred completes and fulfills the natural. This is what the Church teaches. TAC is wrong.

  2010. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes

    Well I thought it was just for fools like me who were too thick to get it

  2011. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:34:00 with 0 likes

    JA, I am not dodging it. You are misusing the Catholic Encyclopedia to try to confute dogma, and you are not succeeding.

  2012. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes

    So, would you say that reading the Western Canon in chronological order is heresy?

  2013. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 2 likes

    Like God knows we can't all be super brilliant because he doesn't give us all the same things. So he let's us all have a fighting chance. You know dodging the whole Predest language

  2014. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 4 likes

    Catherine:
    "The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "

  2015. Kathleen Wilson at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 7 likes

    Does this thread have its own drinking game yet?

  2016. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes

    But as far as I know metaphysics technically does not have God as its proper object.

  2017. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:35:00 with 0 likes

    So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?
    Because sacred theology deals also with things we can only know by faith and revelation; plus it reveals some things we can know by reason.

  2018. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes

    Cool. Sort of like psychoanalysis, eh?

  2019. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 4 likes

    AGAIN:
    "At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics."

  2020. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine, the proper object of metaphysics is God.

  2021. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes

    Thanks! I too saw that but I meant could you put a link there, so that people could see for themselves.

  2022. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:36:00 with 0 likes

    JA, I'm not talking to you anymore.

  2023. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 2 likes

    You keep saying that though

  2024. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 1 likes

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10226a.htm
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Metaphysics
    www.newadvent.org
    That portion of philosophy which treats of the most general and fundamental principles underlying all reality and all knowledge

  2025. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 1 likes

    vide: relation to theology

  2026. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:37:00 with 0 likes

    It can depend, without necessity.

  2027. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:38:00 with 0 likes

    It's not like psychonalysis at all.

  2028. Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T01:38:00 with 2 likes

    Does a fish depend on water to survive? Can we say water is necessary for its survival?

  2029. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 1 likes

    And here I was hoping we could play tell your dream. Although not if it has a crab please.

  2030. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes

    We can say it is necessary for its survival, but not for its being. That's the point.

  2031. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes

    Does metaphysics imply that reason is how we know, cause that's not really Plato's notion of the matter.

  2032. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:39:00 with 0 likes

    Yes.

  2033. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes

    More than imply.

  2034. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 3 likes

    "...Consequently, it must be the office of one and the same science to consider separate substances and being- in-general (ens commune) which is the genus of which the separate substances mentioned above are the common and universal causes.... For the subject of a science is the genus whose causes and properties we seek, and not the causes themselves of the particular genus studied, because the knowledge of the causes of some genus is the goal to which the investigation of the science attains."—Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Metaphysics of Aristotle, prooemium

  2035. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes

    Sam- this is true. But Plato isn't a saint

  2036. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes

    *drops mic*

  2037. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes

    Isn't the proper object of metaphysics just 'being as being'? Or something like that.

  2038. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes

    Sacred theology, on the other hand, is God speaking to man, telling man certain mysteries about the faith.

  2039. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine, yes. That is God.

  2040. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:40:00 with 1 likes

    You should read Plato, dude. In Attic Greek. That is sacred theology.

  2041. Aaron Thibodeaux at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 1 likes

    Good! You've admitted to several meanings of "necessary"! Progress!

  2042. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes

    Well also God-Man talking to man telling us about God and man

  2043. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes

    It would be like sacred theology, if Socrates were God.

  2044. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:41:00 with 0 likes

    Marina, yes.

  2045. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 1 likes

    Are you trying to imply that Socrates was not God?

  2046. Daniel P. O'Connell at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 4 likes

    Being as being is not God. If it were God, then Aristotle would not admit to there being 47 separate substances.

  2047. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 0 likes

    Now the question is, is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man. No, according to the Church. Yes, according to this little college in California.

  2048. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:42:00 with 3 likes

    Sam stop being a heretic

  2049. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 3 likes

    I can't help myself.

  2050. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 0 likes

    "Catherine, yes. That is God" But that's not what you start with in metaphysics. You begin by studying different aspects (properties, whatever) of being and you only eventually reach God at the very end.

  2051. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:43:00 with 0 likes

    Can we all agree that St. marina was a mermaid?

  2052. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 3 likes

    "Moreover, philosophy is indispensable for theological formation. “Theology in fact has always needed and still needs philosophy’s contribution.”[19] By helping to deepen the revealed Word of God, with its character of transcendent and universal truth, philosophy avoids stopping at the level of religious experience. It has rightly been observed that “the crisis of postconciliar theology is, in large part, the crisis of philosophical foundations […]. When philosophical foundations are not clarified, theology loses its footing."

  2053. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes

    catherine, yes, but you reason your way there.

  2054. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 1 likes

    Metaphysics is absolutely philosophy, and not really theology, except in a sneaky way. Or am I being a heretic?

  2055. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes

    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm...
    Library : Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy
    www.catholicculture.org
    Library Document Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy On March 22, 2011, in the Holy See Press Office a press conference was held to present the newly-published Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosophy. Participating in the event were Cardinal Zenon Grochol…

  2056. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes

    Thank you again JA for the scintilating demonstration.

  2057. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:44:00 with 0 likes

    "is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man." Of course not!

  2058. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes

    No metaphysics is also called natural theology. Because it studies God as being.

  2059. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 4 likes

    hahaha Peregrine keep avoiding the plain sense of words, and we'll all be persuaded of your profundity

  2060. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes

    Well God is being I mean sure. But that missed the point

  2061. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 1 likes

    "needed"...sounds like necessity, doesn't it

  2062. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes

    Catherine, I don't think heretics ask if they are being heretical, so I think that means you are not a heretic. Do you float?

  2063. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:45:00 with 0 likes

    You may reach God in metaphysics, but I still hold (like a parrot) that God is not the proper object, in that you don't set out to prove God's existence or anything, or you're not studying God as God.

  2064. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:46:00 with 2 likes

    Well at least someone isn't. #hopeyet

  2065. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:46:00 with 3 likes

    Pretty sure that logging over a thousand FB comments is a heresy of some kind.

  2066. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:47:00 with 0 likes

    OK, catherine, you study God as God when God tells you something more than what you can know about him by reason. But these heretics are saying that what you know of Him by reason is necessary to the fulfillment of what God tells you about Him. Which is false.

  2067. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:47:00 with 3 likes

    So of all you fine folk I do not have a spouse and/or kids. Whats everyone else's excuse?

  2068. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 1 likes

    Well, anything you know, you know with your reason, right?

  2069. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 3 likes

    I already said it: I'm procrastinating, and the wife and kids are sleeping.

  2070. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 2 likes

    Well, I was in a bar one night talking about metaphysics and that's how I met my wife.

  2071. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 0 likes

    So there is some good in it

  2072. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 2 likes

    Is she a heretic?

  2073. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 0 likes

    No, catherine, some things you can only know by faith.

  2074. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:48:00 with 1 likes

    Please tell me you used a metaphysics pick up line

  2075. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 0 likes

    does she float?

  2076. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 1 likes

    I used metaphysics as I pick up line. We have since brought six rational animals into existence.

  2077. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:49:00 with 0 likes

    I don't get the heretics floating reference

  2078. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 2 likes

    Well good. The world must be peopled.

  2079. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 1 likes

    Honestly, Peregrine, I think you'll like my book. I think we agree on the polarity and necessity, but perhaps don't quite see eye-toeye onhow TAC is reversing it.

  2080. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 0 likes

    I believe it's from a movie that was directed and filmed in England by a group of comedians.

  2081. Sam Rocha at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 0 likes

    I float.

  2082. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:50:00 with 3 likes

    "What’s a nice girl like you doing in a possible world like this?”"

  2083. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:51:00 with 2 likes

    "some things you can only know by faith" right, but I just mean that if you didn't have any reason at all, you wouldn't know anything.

  2084. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:51:00 with 0 likes

    No, it was more like, "how would you like to exist together at my place."

  2085. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:52:00 with 0 likes

    Say we be dreaming. What then?

  2086. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes

    That's correct; reason is in man; but when we know by reason, this is using the word differently. When we know in faith, it is reasonable, because of reason in man, used in the primary sense. But this is not what TAC is saying. TAC is saying that unless you reason to God first, then you cannot really have the fullness of knowing God by faith. This is false.

  2087. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes

    So in that sense, reason is necessary, unless you want to hold that irrational animals have faith

  2088. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:53:00 with 0 likes

    No

  2089. Marina Shea at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 4 likes

    Peregrine- I sat in class with the founders multiple times. And as far as I know all of them mentioned the old lady who had faith as the one who knew more than the scholar without.

  2090. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 0 likes

    In that sense, reason is necessary, but that is not the sense that TAC uses the word. For that would just be saying that man is rational.

  2091. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:54:00 with 2 likes

    See, this is good, because we are coming to where the terminology or whatever you want to call it is getting in the way. I say it's the fault of TAC's advertising (since it throws around the term 'necessary' where it might be misunderstood). TAC is certainly not saying that you cannot know God by faith fully unless you reason to him first. In no way.

  2092. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:55:00 with 0 likes

    Yes, I think it is that too. Same with some other colleges.

  2093. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:56:00 with 0 likes

    Here it is the word necessary that is the problem. Or metaphyisics.

  2094. Scott Weinberg at 2014-08-25T01:56:00 with 0 likes

    We should be Catholics first, alumnists second.

  2095. Catherine Ryland at 2014-08-25T01:57:00 with 0 likes

    Well, I'm saying that it comes from a misunderstanding of TAC's advertising material.

  2096. Jehoshaphat Escalante at 2014-08-25T01:57:00 with 8 likes

    TAC nowhere says that theology is a partim/partim relation of revelation and metaphysics. It does say that met